#364 - Chico West - Getting Sober, Overcoming Trauma, & Winning

Chris Powers: Chico, welcome to the show. 

Chico West: Thank you for having me. I'm excited. 

Chris Powers: I can't wait to have you. Today will be awesome. I wanted to start with something that I think it was on your website or maybe I heard you say it, but you said be a buffalo not a cow. What does that mean? 

Chico West: Hey, I love that. If you look at cows in a big pasture, and I think about those big pastures out in Colorado when you come into a valley, and a storm blows in, cows, what they do is they go with the storm. So they're over the storm forever. Buffalo are just different. What they do, they turn into the storm. And they get through the storm quicker. And so, in life, we're all going to face storms. I'd rather be a buffalo and turn into the storm and face my troubles instead of walk away from the storm and let the storm just kind of follow me. How many times have we done that in our lives? 

Chris Powers: And we're always in a storm or there's always a storm coming. 

Chico West: Yeah, it's brewing or something. And so it's like, hey, I want to turn and face it. Okay, what am I facing? 

Chris Powers: I love it. All right, let's set the stage. You have a really unique history and what you do today is super unique. We got to meet each other last year at the retreat, which was amazing. But I want to start pre-sobriety. So what was your life like kind of leading in? Because I think becoming sober, as people will figure out here, is a huge transition in your life and a catalyst for what you've done the last 30-something years. But what did life look like before that? 

Chico West: Well, I grew up in San Antonio, so I say like I'm a real Texan. I live in Dallas now. I mean, Fort Worth is more real Texas than Dallas is. So, I grew up in San Antonio, oldest of four boys, really three at the time. My dad was oldest of six. He died tragically in an accident in 1979. I was 10, almost 11 years old. And that time here in Texas, the drinking age was 18. I grew up, my dad grew up on a working cattle ranch. The west side of the family was this big ranching cattle business. And so there was a lot of drinking, a lot of that, those old messages, pull yourself up by your bootstraps mentality, men don't cry, all those kind of things. So, I had tragedy even prior to my dad passing away. My aunt died two years before. And so there were these messages that kept coming in. My dad, he was a 29 year old dad of three boys. And his wife's sister dies. And he tells me, brings me into the study and says, Chico, as an 8 year old, hey, you cry now, but when you leave this room, you're not going to cry again. You need to be strong for your mom and your brothers and your cousins. And so, it's like those messages were that way. It's like hold my feelings in, stuff that stuff. And so, growing up, was active as a kid in sports. In school, I struggled big time in school. I struggled, had learning differences. At the time, you call it a disability, but today I see I just learn differently. And so, I don't learn like the majority of kids learn. And so, I struggled growing up in school. I struggled complete- even I can joke and maybe my friend will hear this, but we were at summer camp after eighth grade and just how my brain worked, and I'm going to expose myself, we’re writing letters home to our parents, and I look at my buddy Dayton, and I go, Dayton, how do you spell we? I couldn't even spell we after eighth grade. Is it WEE? I just, my brain didn't register because my mind's always going a lot faster. And so, I struggled in school, but made it through it. Started drinking at an early age in middle school and in high school. I went to a boarding school one year, didn't even complete the year. It was a strong Christian prep school up in Long Island, New York. And so, I was exposed to a different culture. These other students, they always said, Chico, you talk so slow. Because they were Long Islanders and talking fast and non-stop. And so, I did that, but I came back and finished high school, went to college. And my drinking, always consequences, after consequences, after consequences. But I had a moment back in August, today's, what, July 31st, August of ’89. I finished my sophomore year in college at SMU. I was supposed to be at SMU. I was down in Austin, opening weekend of school before school starts, I'm drinking. And that was my last drink. It was August 26. My sobriety date’s August 28th, ’89. But that's where I was making it through school, but I wasn't really, I wasn't thriving. So, there was a lot of that. 

Chris Powers: Did you wake up and you're like, I got to quit? Did you go to jail and in a jail-? Was there a moment? 

Chico West: There was a moment of clarity. I mean, you and I were talking before about how you were in the Greek system at TCU. I was in the Greek system at SMU. Back in the 80s, when I was a pledge, the actives even put me on alcohol probation. They saw a problem with my drinking and told me I couldn't drink. That didn't happen in the 80s. I don't know if it's happening now, but it didn't happen in the 80s. And so there were always these moments. But my moment of clarity was that I was down in Austin at a fraternity party and drinking, and I got arrested at the fraternity house and my buddies that were in that fraternity told the other guys that didn't grow up with me leave him in jail, he needs to stay there. And so, I got out a couple days later and was supposed to be back up in Dallas at SMU and that was that moment of clarity. I go, I need help. I'm supposed to be living in the fraternity house. There’s been all these signs from middle school, high school, the fraternity guys not wanting to bail me out. That was the second time I got arrested for assaulting a police officer. So I liked to fight. And you know me, I'm not a big guy, but man, when I drank, I was big.

Chris Powers: Okay, you said that you had to come to the decision that you needed to change. Speaking of like people broadly, is it possible to recover if you haven't told yourself from the very beginning, I have a problem and I need to change? Because you see people all the time that are in and out of rehab or they're constantly quitting, but they're starting again. 

Chico West: Yeah, well, alcoholism, drug addiction, it is a disease. When I had that moment of clarity on August 28th, ’89, and came back up to Dallas and withdrew from college, I didn't think I was going to be today almost 35 years still clean and sober. That wasn't- I had a moment of clarity that I needed help. But my help was I knew I had assaulted a police officer for the second time. I was fearful that they were going to find out in Texas, because this happened in North Carolina, my first assault on an officer. I thought they were going to find out and I was facing some real time. It's a class A misdemeanor. So, my intention on getting help was to get help to get through this court case. I did have, and a lot of people don't go into treatment. It's like we're here in Texas and stuff like that, that kind of bootstrap mentality is like I don't see anybody clicking their boot heels going damn, I'm an alcoholic, I'm going to get sober today. No, there's always some kind of consequence. But in that moment of surrender, when someone can find that moment of surrender, and mine happened at 90 days of sobriety. I was in treatment. I went to back then what was called a halfway house. And I went to a halfway house in Atlanta, Georgia. And I was at- I came home for Thanksgiving, and I was talking and went with my parents to church. I was rebelling against church, rebelling against God, all those things. And that moment on November 26, ’89, this missionary named Sammy Tibbets was just talking about Romania. And while he was talking about Romania and just sharing the gospel in Romania, he was talking about the Romanians and Ceausescu. And the wall had just come down, but it didn't come down in Romania. It came down in East, in Berlin. And he was talking about how Ceausescu was trying to build a million man army and he wasn't bringing down his wall. And all there was was these Romanians, all they wanted to do was believe. And there were these outside churches outside the cities. And he talked about witnessing Ceausescu's army come in and kill all the men that were outside. And then the women and children were in the church and he would burn them alive. And that's where God grabbed my heart and said, man, these people are dying just to worship. And it just- and I still get chills today that that's the day that God grabbed my heart and just radically changed me. Now, I still had issues and I still had problems and I still had a lot of work to do, and I'm still a man, a work in progress. I'm still active with a group of men where we go and dig deep and do our own work and then I've gotten back into therapy myself to do work. But the cool thing, he grabbed a hold of me and that was November 26, ’89. April of 1993, I'm leading ten kids from Frankfurt, Germany, on the military base to Romania on a mission trip. That's God. I don't- and I still think about that when I'm just sharing that story with you. It is like, wow, he's had his hand. That's why I want to be a buffalo. I want to face the trials, whatever I come into, the storms in my life.

Chris Powers: What does believing in Jesus mean to you? Because you just said, I think it was the best way put, like it's a journey. It's a lifelong journey. It's not some commitment that you're never going to sin again and you're going to be perfect. It's a commitment that you are a sinner and that you wake up every day trying to get even just a little bit more Christ-like. But to you, how do you think about the journey? 

Chico West: I like that. This new book that I've been reading, it's kind of my favorite right now. Everybody gives me a hard time because whatever's going on in my world, it might become my favorite. But it's called Sacred Fire. And he's quoting this guy that said, is faith, what is faith? Is it more about the heart or your feelings? And this guy kind of answered it in a crass way. No, it's either. It's neither one of those. It's really about where your ass is. And so for faith and my relationship with Christ, if I'm of service to others, if I'm getting out of self, if I'm looking at what's going on with me and seeing what's getting in the way of me caring for my wife, loving the guy on the road as I drove over here, and when I say loving the guy on the road, not cutting him off, not doing those things. And man, that's where my relationship, I go I am tracking today. But it is a constant, it's a daily deal. That's where recovery really helped me in my relationship with Christ, talking about it that I have a- I love Alcoholics Anonymous because in there, in the Big Book, it talks about how I'm not cured of alcoholism, but I have a daily reprieve contingent on the maintenance of my spiritual condition. It's not that I have a spiritual condition, but no, it's the maintenance of that. I have a relationship with Christ. No, but it's that maintenance of that. I have that daily reprieve. And you know where we use the word reprieve? We get a reprieve just south on 45. You and I don't, but there's guys south on 45 in this town called Huntsville. It's the state prison.

Chris Powers: Okay. Yeah, now I've gotten track. 

Chico West: In Huntsville in the state prison, sometimes guys are sentenced to death and they're on death row, and they might get a reprieve from the governor. They might get a reprieve. That's a stay of execution where they're not going to do it. Hopefully I die a sober alcoholic, but I'm going to die, you're going to die. We each get a reprieve every day. Do I take advantage of that day? So my relationship with Christ is how can I be of service to others? How can I continue to go to him and see the awesome gift that he's given me, he's given you. Yeah, I was an alcoholic and active in my addiction, using a lot of drugs, getting in trouble, been arrested several times, but man, that was God grabbing a hold of me on that November day. I was sober and I was doing what I was told to do, but sometimes God grabs a hold of kids in BBS. That is magical. It's no different. My story might sound better, and we could unpack that more, but man, I want to talk about how God's using me today. And he's just prepared me each step of the way. 

Chris Powers: You've helped, I don't know, hundreds, probably thousands of individuals, not just get sober, but probably save their life in many ways. You've helped families. But around sobriety, is there a common theme of why people use so heavily drugs and drinking, or is it usually running from something? Is it trauma? Like you've heard everything you could possibly hear. How would you break down what puts a person in that place to be in such a bad spot?

Chico West: Yeah. Well, and in some instances, I do believe that it's a disease, that's an allergy of the body and an obsession of the mind. 85, 90% of the population will not have the allergy of the body. And when I say alcoholism, I'm talking drug addiction too. It's kind of the same thing. But yes, people just- it's like, I don't know, you think of when I was growing up, no one had peanut allergies, but now kids are born with these peanut allergies. What happens if they touch peanut oil or they eat any peanuts, their throat closes up and you need an EpiPen. The alcoholic is different, like when they start drinking, their throat opens up. And so, they never get enough. And so, I do believe that, but also, the more we've learned, especially in the last 20 years in the addiction field, I think a lot of people have unresolved trauma or wounds that just perpetuate it, that just set us up for it. And then our nervous system gets hijacked in a lot of ways, and the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system start to take hold. And so, your rational part of your brain shuts off. And I taught- and that can be any addiction. We're talking chemicals, but I talked to a buddy last night that has been sober from sex addiction and pornography, and he started looking at inappropriate content, and his wife looked at him, and this is a good man who loves the Lord. And he's going, man, I just, it was insanity. I don't know. It just kind of took over him. So, a lot of times, I think what was taking over him is not being consistent on his recovery, but also probably some unresolved trauma or wounds that he's never dealt with. So, I think, does that kind of answer your question? 

Chris Powers: Yeah. Well, and then the break, not the breaking point, but the point at which these people start recovering, going back to what we were talking about, is that usually once they have understood something's wrong and I'm a problem, or like, how do you cure these- I'm not saying you're curing them, but how do you save somebody, or what's the common thread of when somebody's willing to take that turn in their life? 

Chico West: Well, and I'm going to quote again the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous, lots of times I introduce myself if I'm in recovery circles, and a lot of people, some people don't understand this, I go, hi, I'm Chico. I'm a recovered alcoholic, drug addict. A lot of people say recovering, not recovered, because that sounds like I'm cured. But I'm not cured, but I'm recovered from that, I like what the Big Book says, that seemingly hopeless state of mind and body. So when your addiction has continued on, and you're at that place of that seemingly hopeless state of mind and body, you kind of give up hope. And so I'm recovered. What takes that person to get to that place of being a recovered alcoholic or recovering, I'm not going to get into semantics, but I do believe in being recovered of that seemingly hopeless state of mind and body, is really doing the work. And doing the work, that's what's great, you don't have to be in Alcoholics Anonymous or be an alcoholic or any kind of addiction to do the work. To do the work is kind of how the Big Book talks about it, but you can do it in some other ways, is getting down and doing the steps. The steps are real simple. It's like admit there's a problem, see that there's something greater than yourself that can restore you to sanity. Do a searching and fearless moral inventory. When you do that and share that with someone else and God, then you're going to recognize your character defects and your shortcomings. You're going to ask God to remove those. Then you're going to go into making amends, cleaning up your side of the street. It's not saying you're sorry. It's really taking ownership of your behavior and how it's probably affected these other people. And it's not to get a sorry or, oh, yes, I forgive you. No, it's like I want to clean up my side of the street and then continue to do the maintenance. And so that's really the simple thing. And when someone does that, and what I believe, that's really surrender. But then continuing to do the work is recognizing, okay, what are the patterns or behaviors where I get back into my sinful desires of the flesh? My flesh is weak, but the spirit is strong, and to recognize those things. 

Chris Powers: You mentioned the higher calling in AA. Is there a difference in recovery for people that follow a higher calling versus people that follow Christ in their recovery? 

Chico West: Well, and you hear a lot of times in AA higher power. In Alcoholics Anonymous, now I might be wrong, I think higher power’s mentioned three times in the Big Book in the first 164 pages. After those pages is stories. But in the first, that's the meat and potatoes. That's the original text. In the first 164 pages, higher power is mentioned three times or referenced three times. Now several times, it's God or power greater than yourself. In the third step, the third step is made a decision to turn my will and my life over to the care of God as we understood him. And so, if you look at the context of the Big Book, it was written in the 30s by these two guys that I think were inspired to write it. But back then, the alcoholic was really shamed and outcast, especially in the church, and it was moral failure. And so, there was a lot of spiritual abuse back then. But if you look at the New Testament, only three times is Christianity or Christian mentioned. But we talk about it everywhere. How did they identify themselves in the first century? They were bond servants, slaves, followers of the way. It wasn't really about being a Christian. It was about those things. And so, we get caught up sometimes on the semantics. So when someone really turns their life over to the care of God, and hopefully for me, my desire is that they turn it over to Christ, the only true God, that you do see that. I see a lot of guys that I don't know, it's not my place to know if they are a Christian and they surrender their life to Christ, but I hope that I can be a witness and not be someone that gets in the way of that.

Chris Powers: If you're working with someone that's totally skeptical, what do you usually tell them? How do you usually in a gentle way, kind of, do you get them reading something? Do you talk to them about something that might point them towards Jesus and let them kind of go off on their journey? Or do you have- is it different with everybody? 

Chico West: Well, the great thing is, Chris, is like, okay, it's almost 35 years this journey of recovery I've been on and almost 35 years of really tracking with Jesus, that for many years, I was fearful in the AA community and the recovery community to talk about my faith in Christ. I'd say God, I wouldn't say higher power. But now over the last 15 plus years, I've really been bold in that. And what I said earlier about these men that we go in and do our own work, these are all guys that either own or ran treatment programs around the country and I was included in this group 15 years ago. And it's, hey, how's your relationship with your wife, with your kids, how's your relationship with people that you work with, because if we own these programs or are running these programs and we're not healthy, those programs won't be healthy. So, I love how these men that I really admire and look up to and are my buddies, I started being bold about my faith in Christ. And so, I've named, and we have shirts, I named our group the Notorious Sinners. And so that comes from Matthew 9, when Jesus is eating with Matthew and other notorious sinners. 

Chris Powers: Yeah. Tax collectors. 

Chico West: Yeah, and the religious leaders go, why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and other notorious sinners? And they ask his disciples, they don't even ask Jesus, they're afraid to ask Jesus. But Jesus on hearing this said, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means. I desire mercy, not sacrifice. And so, for me, it's like these guys, some of them have grown up Jewish, grown up, one guy has 54 years almost of sobriety, guys in their 70s, ran Betty Ford, these guys, they are open with me talking about my faith, bringing scripture in, talking about those things. They want me- lots of times, one of my buddies, his wife in her 70s went in the hospital. Hey, let's get Chico to pray. And so, it's like how do I model that out. And so, there's been a lot of those guys that have been skeptical, but it's like wait, what is Jesus- they'll see by your fruit. I like that he says your fruit not your fruits because it's the fruit of the spirit. It's all one. And if I'm patient, if I'm gentle, if I'm kind, self-control, they're going to see it how I'm living life out. 

Chris Powers: Maybe let's take now a little bit of time, tell me what you do today. What is a day, maybe a day in the life, or what are you focused on? Who are the people you're helping? Who are you on the battlefield with? 

Chico West: So a couple of things. I've been a licensed professional counselor for coming up on 30 years, got my degree from Dallas seminary. 

Chris Powers: Oh really?

Chico West: I went to DTS. And so, I've always had a private practice, primarily it started out back in the 90s, early 2000s working with high school and young adults. I don't really do that anymore. So, I have a private practice where I am working with doing marriage stuff. And I love that. My wife and I do that. And then my wife, Shannon, she's been truly bone of my bones, flesh of my flesh, like Adam said, it's like, it wasn't bone of her bones or flesh of her flesh. She's- today that has come more alive that I get to see a little of me in her, and she gets to see a little of her in me. And she has complimented me. She helped me start both programs. She is the founder of Gaston House. She is the founder of Casa Colina. She helped found, I had a counseling practice. So today, I have my counseling practice, but I think you are familiar with this program called Onsite. And so, I’m doing some stuff with Onsite. My buddy Miles owns it, and they kind of call me the brand ambassador. And so, I'm just a big time fan of Onsite because it's really about getting in there and unpacking and doing those wounds or if there's trauma or what are the different messages that you've been telling yourself. So, I do a little work with Onsite. I work with some of their clients on a coaching standpoint, so not just counseling but more coaching. And then the other thing is, I know my buddy, who's your buddy too, Gordon Highlander, is I am, I'm kind of the coach/counselor at Gordon Highlander. And so, I'm loving that, and that opportunity to work with their executive team and sometimes just other employees if they're wrestling with stuff, having that safe place. 

Chris Powers: Okay. We're going to talk about Gordo in a second. Real quick, does everybody have trauma? 

Chico West: I don't think so. Yeah, I think- 

Chris Powers: Is that because nobody's experienced it or because people handle situations differently and trauma doesn't kind of like seep in? 

Chico West: Well, and when I say I don't think so, like what's your definition of trauma? 

Chris Powers: Something, I mean, the easy quick answer without thinking about it too much is like something really bad that's kind of happened to you that it's almost embedded in who you are. And sometimes, you don’t actually know it’s- like for example, my dad died 12 years ago. I suppressed the hell out of it, didn't acknowledge it, just marched forward, didn't cry, and I just have felt like even nine years later, so it would have been three years ago, was the first time it kind of felt like it was all coming back. So, I would say, okay, it was a traumatic way of his life ending, he was in an accident, didn't really deal with it. I think it, looking back, probably influenced a lot of my behavior. So, I would assume it was like something bad that kind of stays within you that alters the course of your life to some degree that if, I guess, healed or recognized or worked on can kind of lift a cloud over you. That's kind of a long way to describe trauma. And maybe… totally different, but like everybody's experienced something bad. Now, not everybody deals with the same thing the same way that somebody else would. Like you'd meet people who have somebody pass away and it haunts them the rest of their life. They never get over it. 

Chico West: That's why I said no to begin with because I don't know your audience and stuff like that. It's like trauma is a big buzzword these days and most of us think of something like the loss of a loved one tragically, quickly, with life. 

Chris Powers: Yeah, or abuse growing up, or watching a murder happen, or just something terrible. 

Chico West: That, and those are true traumas, and what we call those are- So, I wanted to know what you were thinking and also the audience. Like, a lot of people will not experience what we call those as big T traumas. Then there's little T traumas. And so when you think about little T traumas, it’s like a lot of us will experience little T traumas. 

Chris Powers: What would be a little t trauma? 

Chico West: Middle school teasing, mean girl stuff. I'm 5’7”; I still get teased about my height at 55 years old. 

Chris Powers: I'm not laughing at you. 

Chico West: No, but that's all right. It's like but those things became little t traumas, and how we process those traumas, they can have a big impact neurologically in how we deal with other things. So the answer is yes and no. So yes, I think everybody experiences trauma. How we process trauma, how trauma plays out in our lives, it's going to be different for every person. And some of it is like my wife, she's in big time remission and recovery from ulcerative colitis. But different foods she ate and what happened with her body, her body, she would get ulcers on her large intestines and it’d be very, very painful. I can eat the same stuff as her. I process it just fine. And so, it's just like how we- the body is going to- I love this book. It's called The Body Keeps the Score. And the Body Keeps the Score is like how we deal with it, each person's going to deal with it a little different. Their sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system is going to play a factor in that. So, yes, everybody has trauma. A lot of people don't have big T traumas, big T traumas, mass school shootings, big T traumas, a lot of things, war, what's happening in Israel right now, and in the Ukraine, big T trauma. My wife and I just got back from Europe and we were on a boat in Italy, and I saw two high school girls and I asked, where are you from? And I would have thought they would be big T trauma. They were from the Ukraine. There's a war going on, and I go, are y'all nervous? No, we live right near Poland, we don't see anything. So they don't experience any of the trauma, but what does our media say? That Poland's just horrible all over the place. So it's going to affect- 

Chris Powers: Like great, y'all send us $200 billion, what do you mean? 

Chico West: Yes, and so right there, it's like that Ukraine example is like it's affecting a certain part of that country, but there's parts of the country, these girls got on a bus and rode 24 hours down to Italy, and they're 17 years old and their parents say, hey, go do it. 

Chris Powers: Do most- in just kind of your experience and like even my experience at Onsite, I would imagine most people don't even know all the traumas that are affecting them. Like what I realized at Onsite, you talk to someone for enough days, you start to like, oh wow, didn't even know that was like impacting some way I'm making a decision. Do most people operate not even fully understanding all the, quote unquote, trauma that's kind of driving them? 

Chico West: Yeah. Trauma or sometimes I like to call it just wounds. It's maybe easier to digest. Yeah, I think a lot of times, people don't even realize it or are in survival mode or they're so busy they don't have time to just pause and think about that. When you're in your 30s and 40s and you're having kids and you're raising the kids and you're going to this one sporting event and then this parent-teacher deal and then you're trying to build up your business and you're trying to manage your marriage and just hoping you can have 10 minutes to talk to your wife, how do you have time to look at maybe some old wounds or traumas that happened in your childhood? It's hard. And so, I think sometimes that stuff will come up. Like what we talked about earlier, we're always going to face storms. 

Chris Powers: What would happen if you had a beer tomorrow or today? 

Chico West: That's a- You know what? 

Chris Powers: Like, would it kill you? Cause you'd made it 35 years and stopped. Would it reactivate or would it just be a nothing burger and you just had one beer and you move on with life? 

Chico West: I would believe that I'm telling myself a lie and everybody around me a lie. And I might not, I might drink a beer, if I drink a beer today, I might not go out and go on a bender, but I do believe in the allergy of the body and that obsession would kick in. But I believe more, it would be internal and this internal just, hey, you are a liar, you're a sham, look at you, you blew it all. The mental dialogue that would go on would really be the thing that would rob me. And I'd get into rationalizing, justifying, minimizing. Do I have to get my new date? And I don't want to do any of that; that just sounds miserable. That was a different segue, from trauma to beer. 

Chris Powers: I would imagine that would almost be like maybe a little t or a big T if you did it, for someone that's been sober for 35 years. …sometimes we just a quick left turn and then I'll bring you right back to the middle We'll get back to trauma in a second. 

Chico West: It would be a little t that would probably turn into a big T. 

Chris Powers: What would you say, what do you tell people, I'm sure people ask you this, they're like, look, I don't- I want to- nobody's bad because they drink. So let's get that like off the table. But you probably talk to a lot of people that are like, man, I wish I could quit. I don't even really like- it's just like a social thing. I go after work, it's with my buddies. It's like a glass of wine here. What do you tell people that want to quit, but they just kind of say, like they just kind of stay in it because it's just the easiest path forward, they don't lose friends over it, they don't, it's not awkward? 

Chico West: Yeah, and they're not- they don't fit the criteria for alcoholism or addiction and stuff like that. But they're going, man, I kind of want to look at this, but man, it just sounds too hard to look at it. That's where it's like a lot of times what we're doing is we're projecting or what I like to call sometimes future tripping. It's like, okay, let's just go today. If you want to try to make it today without drinking, let's do that. Why are you thinking about, today's July 31st and you're thinking about Texas OU? Okay, Texas OU hadn't even happened yet. 

Chris Powers: I'm going to take all the money I would have spent on beer, I'm getting extra corn dogs and getting more cotton candy. 

Chico West: But it's like we get there and we do that. I work sometimes with people that are going through divorce or stuff like that. And during the divorce, it's like, hey, you want to be as clear headed as possible. They're not alcoholics, they don't have any of the characteristics of it, but then they might be getting attacked by the spouse about their drinking. And it's like don't give them any power. Don't drink. Okay, I have no problem. Also, you're going to be more clear headed. 

Chris Powers: Then what's the definition of having a problem versus not having a problem? Like could you have somebody that drinks three drinks a day that has a problem and somebody that drinks three drinks a day that doesn't have a problem? 

Chico West: Well, I like going back to that definition, an allergy of the body and an obsession of the mind. And so, when that allergy kicks in, you go on a craving, you want more and more. And then you have consequences. So a spree occurs, you have consequences. And so it's this, what we call the cycle of addiction. And so, this cycle goes down, and when the consequences happen, they get to this place down here at the bottom and they have this firm resolution, okay, I'm going to stop. And so have they had that firm resolution? And then over here, they're not drinking. And when they're down here at the bottom at this firm resolution, that person that's the alcoholic versus the person that's not the alcoholic, that person gets restless, irritable, discontent, and they go, I know what will relieve that. That's where the mental obsession kicks in. I'll just have one drink. And they do that. But like the example I told you about, someone that's going through a divorce, and they're not drinking though this divorce because of accusations and all the lawyer crap. They are restless, irritable, discontent. They are going through a divorce. But they aren’t thinking about, hey, I know what can relieve that. So that mental obsession isn't there. And so that's the big difference right there is all of us are going to get restless, irritable, discontent. The alcoholic solution is, I know what will relieve that. The drug addict solution, I know what will relieve that. When someone else, when you're facing different life circumstances, it's like that's not the thought. No, I want to become a better parent. I want to become a better whatever.

Chris Powers: Okay. Now we're going to go back to trauma. So we're back full circle.  We went down. Now we are back. 

Chico West: Well, we've been doing these cycles. 

Chris Powers: That's how my brain works. Do you get over trauma or do you learn how to deal with it? Like people that are able to move on from something, whether it's a big T or a little t, have they just, whether it's maybe forgiven somebody, or like how do you know somebody's kind of moved on from it or is not sulking in it or being defined by it, if that makes sense? 

Chico West: Yeah. Well, I mean, some of those things, if you're spending time with them, you can read it in their face and their body language. It's like a lot of communication, communication, only 7% is words, so the actual words you speak. 38% is tone. 55% is body language. And so, if their body language is like you see that person actually look lighter, where their shoulders are back and they're carrying themselves, and they don't have their head down or their tone isn't short and stuff like that, you go, okay, hey man, they're working through this. This isn't holding them hostage. And so, when people- it's not holding them hostage. It was traumatic knowing that my dad told me at 8 years old in his study, get all your crying out now because when you leave this room, you need to be strong and not cry in front of your mom or your brothers or your cousins. Almost two years to the day, my dad died. And outside that little study in the hallway, my granddad said, now it's time for you to be the man of the house at 10. And I'm not blaming them. I'm just naming it. That was really unhealthy. That was toxic. 

Chris Powers: Okay. So I'll just ask you, what was unhealthy about being told that? What tripped in you, or as you look back, what was unhealthy about that? 

Chico West: That it wasn't all right to cry. It wasn't all right to show emotions. The message was, no, keep it down, don't express yourself. What I've realized now, just doing my own work, continuing to do my own work, is my superpower is my sensitivity. But I was told growing up or whatever, I'd get drunk, and I was like, I was either a fighter drunk or a crier drunk. It's like I was two polar extremes. I'm just crying in front of some girl or my buddies, or I'm wanting to fight everybody. And I was told forever that, man, I'm just too sensitive. And now I realize, no, that is my superpower. And so that sensitivity has helped me connect and be a resource for other people to get the freedom from addiction, from old messages, from other things like that. 

Chris Powers: Okay, so then I'm going to finish that question though on how some- so you said they look lighter, you can tell it in their tone. But my question is that is a result of something that they decided inside. What did they decide inside usually? Like what is the catalyst that breaks them free of that trauma? 

Chico West: And sometimes it might be through therapy, through going to Onsite. There's some different therapeutic models that I really believe that have shown evidence, EMDR, brain spotting. Sometimes there's stuff that's caught in the back of the brain that, in order through this kind of guided imagery, can bring it up to the forefront and begin to help you. I did brain spotting on that sensitivity piece, and so it's like seeing where that anxiety or those messages come from in your body and when you're walking through it, it's that powerful feeling. And so, for me, it's just I can give you, give an example of me when my therapist took me through that with that sensitivity and those messages of, hey, that kind of stuff. He had me do the brain spotting and he's walking me through that and I have this little music deal on my ear and I'm listening to this and he's asking these questions and kind of guiding what's happening, and he's going okay, what's going on? Where is the tightness? And I go, I feel like this giant ball in the middle of my chest, more kind of over on the left side. He goes okay, take your left arm out and put it out there, and what are those messages? And I did. And all I had was this arm right here like this and it felt like literally 200 pounds. I could barely hold my arm up, and it's no problem holding my arm up right now. And what are those messages? And so, then he goes, okay, where was your sensitivity good? Hold it out on the right side. And I talked about with my son and stuff like that, and it was like, man, this was light. And so it's just kind of bringing them two together, and where do you want to take that? And so for me, I took it to the foot of the cross and gave it because he already did that for me 2000 years ago. And so it was like letting go of that and then being all right with embracing, hey, I'm a sensitive man and taking that on. And so it's like I can step into that and not believe the old messages. So, when we start breaking free of those old messages that we've been telling ourselves forever, that's where you see some freedom. 

Chris Powers: So it's identifying what those, if you don't know, it's the lies that you tell yourself, acknowledging that they exist and then saying, I have something I can do about it now. I'm not defined by it forever. 

Chico West: Yeah. And I love, I'll give Colonel Lewis from Menomia. I love his description. The opposite of addiction is relationships. 

Chris Powers: What's that mean? 

Chico West: It’s being in relationship with others, being in relationship with God, but being in a relationship with others where I can share that with another. In Galatians, it talks about bear one another's burdens. We need to bear our own burdens first, it says. But you hear in the Christian community, bear one another's burdens. No, we've got to bear our own, and bearing our own is going and doing that work and taking it to God, but then bearing it for others, being there to take that on. And so that's that relationship, so you don't feel so alone. And if it's addiction with chemicals, if it's addiction with process addiction, gambling or sex or spending or whatever, I think we're an addictive society because we don't pause. We can find something even good to be addicted to – work. A lot of guys get consumed with that and don't have a relationship with their family or their kids. They're getting all their accolades from people in the community and stuff like that or their pocketbook and the next million they make. That gets addictive. But on the outside, it looks good. They're driving the freaking sports Range Rover SUV or whatever. 

Chris Powers: Yeah. Not very fulfilling in the long run. All right. This might be a tough question. We've talked a little bit about trauma and things that have worked out. You've been doing this for 35 years. You've seen trauma and things don't work out. People pass over. Like you've probably seen- 

Chico West: I’ve been to a lot of funerals, spoken at several funerals. 

Chris Powers: I guess it's just more of a personal question. Like how do you carry that around? That's a unique spot in the world to be in to see so much success from destruction but also see destruction lead to chaos. 

Chico West: I was told years ago, this was over 30 years ago, I was the drug and alcohol counselor at SMU. 

Chris Powers: You were?

Chico West:  Yeah. 

Chris Powers: So you went from being the drug and alcohol user to the drug and alcohol counselor in like five or six years? I love it. 

Chico West: Literally in 1989, in the spring of ‘89. And I went back and looked at the police report from the SMU police because I got to five, six years later. I had the longest report as of that date, even five years later. I mean, there was a lady police officer, an SMU police officer, who they're actually police officers, but I was running through the dorms drunk and stuff like that. And she gets called, someone, me, I went and sat on- she had her door open and goes, come over here. I sat on her lap, grabbed the mic out of her hand and said come get me rent-a-cops. And SMU wanted to kick me out. And then five years, six years later, they're hiring me to be the drug and alcohol counselor. 

Chris Powers: Like 5’7.5” male seen crying and fighting through the campus is now here. But yeah, you've seen a lot of where things go wrong. 

Chico West: And so, my mentor then, which I passed it on, I give him credit. His name's Sam Brito is in his 90s now, and he was he was my boss, my mentor at that time in my life. And I would take it personal if these guys relapsed or something happened. And he goes, Chico, if you take credit for the successes, you need to take credit for the failures. And so yes, there's been a lot of success. I've gotten to be a part of that. But I don't want to take any credit for that. God used me, and I go, I got to give him the glory and he's given me a gift with my sensitivity and my straight shooting. It's like a weird combination. And so, it's like I get this gift. I want to step into that gift, but I also want to step into the fact that, man, it's not up to me. I'm not in the results business. And so that's what's helped me not take those things on. That doesn't mean I don't weep. I had a man who I met with his daughters and his wife a month ago, got him to treatment a year and a half ago, actually lives in my neighborhood. His oldest daughter went to high school with my youngest son. And so, that's how I even know him even more than just in my office. He shot himself in his backyard. And so, I went over to their house when I found out and just got the daughters connected with a therapist, made sure the wife's connected. But my heart aches. And I went home and wept. But at the same time, it's like I can't take credit for that failure and I can't take credit for the successes that these other men are doing. Last night, a guy, 40 years old, he's in the field of addiction, came through my program, doing real well, works for this program up in Colorado, took me to dinner to my favorite restaurant, Javier's. But he was- I can't take credit for his success, and he gave me such a good gift. I called my wife, she's out of town. He said -I go, Josh said, and he goes, you and Shannon's marriage is the marriage I want. And it's like, man, not the recovery. He wants our marriage. Recovery makes my marriage possible. But that is- I don't want to take credit for that. I go, I looked at Josh, I go- and Josh is a believer, but he's just kind of getting poured into by other men that are believers and I challenged him with that. I go, Josh, the only reason is God's grace and mercy that Shannon has a faith that is so much greater than mine, and then I am trusting him. 

Chris Powers: Did you all start your marriage with that faith or did you build that up throughout marriage? 

Chico West: Well, we were in our twenties. We both loved the Lord in our twenties, but man, it's like I think the things I said and did in my twenties from a faith standpoint was, I'll never treat my kids that way or I'll do this. It's just like we make funny statements. 

Chris Powers: Yeah. You said like five times that one of your superpowers is, I believe, being sensitive. What do you mean by that? 

Chico West: I think my sensitivity helps me with discernment of others and seeing where they are. 

Chris Powers: Got it. So like empathy? 

Chico West: Yes, like empathy. That sensitivity gets that empathy, gets that place where people will open up and share with me. My boys joke about it. My oldest is 25, the other one is almost 21. They go, for some reason, we're at the beach in California and some random person is open enough and sharing their life story with dad. How does that happen? I see that as a God deal; that ain't a Chico deal. 

Chris Powers: I think I know the answer to this question, but why are more people vulnerable probably with you or with an Onsite counselor they've never met before than they would ever be with somebody that they live with? Why do people tend to spill the beans, not to strangers, but is it because... 

Chico West: Why are they more vulnerable with the people that are not close to them? 

Chris Powers: Well, and maybe that's characterizing a little too much. I think once somebody has been vulnerable and has experienced that, they're probably more likely to be vulnerable over and over again. But for a lot of people, that first time they've kind of really told the truth to somebody or this is what I'm really dealing with, you tend to see that happen behind closed doors, often with a professional. What is it about society that makes it to where you have to get to that point to kind of spill the beans and you can't do it before then with a family member or friend? I'm not saying everybody doesn't do that, especially men. Like they very rarely will tell you what's really going on, but then they'll go see someone, and they're like, yeah, I told them everything. Why don't they just do that in their everyday life? 

Chico West: Fear.

Chris Powers: Fear of what? 

Chico West: Fear of man, fear of what this person's going to think, fear of judgment, fear of abandonment, fear of looking less than. 

Chris Powers: So the fear is the blocker to truly kind of setting themselves free. 

Chico West: Yeah, and I had a buddy that I went to DTS with that did a word study. He saw in scriptures that fear, not even anxiety or terrified or stuff like that, there's 365 different references to fear alone in scripture. And so, God's telling us something that, man, we struggle with fear. The fear of man, the fear of abandonment, the fear of loneliness, the fear pushes that away. We had this little dog we had to put down, we had him for about 12 years. It was a rescue dog. But man, he only liked us. You come to my house, anybody comes to the house, he barks, 18 pound just terror. But he wasn't angry. He was always scared. He was abused for two years before we got him. But he was this little dog that was just- and sometimes, I'd pick him up and he wouldn't snap at me, but he'd be shaking. And so, what we see is guys will put off that front from men, women, and I don't think it's unique with men. Women just talk more. They use more words so they're talking a lot and they're talking in circles and it's all over the map. It's kind of funny. Yes. I have two brains, the male brain and the female brain, and if I had a dry erase board, the male brain has quadrants. You have your work quadrant, you have your sports quadrant, you have your sex quadrant, and it's like you get into, you just move into that. When you're here with with people you're working with, you're not thinking about sex, maybe a little bit about going home, but you're just there. The woman brain, when I draw a picture, it's like nonstop, it's all over the place. There's no quadrants. It's always moving around. So we think that they really know their feelings and are in touch with their feelings. No, they're just using a lot more words. So, it's not unique. 

Chris Powers: So what is usually, what's the general fear of men and what's the general fear of women? 

Chico West: And this is just a theory and Chico theory so don't take it to heart. 

Chris Powers: It's your podcast. 

Chico West: I think if you get down deep for a man, the fear of being found out as a phony or a fraud. And then that will manifest itself in all sorts of different ways. I've had two successful businesses that I sold, but when I sold them, it's like I got a lot of my identity from being the guy. And so when those things went down a different turn than I was anticipating, it's like I really had to see that, man, I was getting a lot of my identity and being that, and I thought I was this- I was fearful of being a phony or a fraud, and I was forgetting all the people that I got to come in contact with, that I got to work with, that I got to be part of their recovery or be part of their life. I mean, my last program that I didn't anticipate to sell or anything like that is Father's Day happened and it's been three and a half years, and several of the employees sent me Happy Father's Day. I mean, it's like I hadn't been in their lives in three and a half years. Those kinds of things, but we get fearful of that. I think in this, and so if women are listening, you can bash me. But I think women's, I'm not good enough. There's that I'm not good enough mentality. I'm not a good enough mom, I'm not a good enough spouse, I'm not a good enough friend. There's those fears, and I think that becomes the driver. 

Chris Powers: Okay, two questions, and then we're going to get to Gordo here in a second. Is addiction genetic or by choice? 

Chico West: Nature or nurture?

Chris Powers: Yeah.

Chico West: I think it's both. 

Chris Powers: Okay. You hear all the time like it runs in the family. 

Chico West: Yeah, and you can see that, but definitely that nurturing component and growing up in those families. But nature is like, man, especially addiction now with all these different drugs and stuff like that, it is huge. The crazy thing is there's so many people, and I know, Chris, you probably I know a ton. I know guys in their 70s that haven't smoked pot in 40 years now that are eating gummies when they go to Colorado. And the marijuana is so much stronger and it has that addictive component than it did 20 years, 30, 40 years ago is so much stronger. And so, there's this big misconception – it's just marijuana. And so, you're seeing that and just like the example of, hey, I have three glasses of wine a day or three beers a day or three scotches a day. But people are eating gummies or hitting the vape pen multiple times a day that are out here in the business world and successful, quote unquote, and I'm putting quotes up. But it becomes a dependency there. And so, you're seeing that more and more especially. And then you look at the opiates, and the opiate epidemic and all that as well. 

Chris Powers: Is it getting worse or better? Like all these drugs, is it like every year, it just continues to get worse and worse, or are you seeing a trend that like maybe this younger generation doesn't care as much about taking drugs and pills and everything? 

Chico West: I think there's a movement going on with the younger generation, that are getting in there and wanting to grow spiritually and getting away from things. It's kind of almost like a revival happening. And I'm excited for that. We always- I think some of it is in our media, everything's tilted towards the negative when there's a lot of positive things going on. What happened in, what, Asbury, Kentucky, last year, what happened at Auburn and on these college campuses and seeing people really grow there, at the different churches around the country, not just here in the Bible belt buckle but all over the country, like young people are- the media is saying people are straying away from it, but I think the church is changing, and I'm excited about the change. I think we're going to get away from the big churches and the mega churches, but I think it's more of these smaller kind of more home churches and people going no, man, there's more to life. So I think there's a positive thing happening at the same time. 

Chris Powers: Totally agree. All right. Our friend, Greg Gordon. We don't have it at Fort, but it's been an inspiration, maybe one day we'll have something similar. So, describe your relationship with the business. And I just want to talk about what you do with them. And there's a lot of entrepreneurs and business owners that listen to this. So, like, what do you do with them? And then maybe we can talk about stories or things that have happened since you started working with the company. 

Chico West: Well, Gordo and I's relationship goes back 17 years. And I love that, and that's his story to tell. But as our relationship really turned into a deep friendship in that sense of the opposite of addiction is relationship. And we have that, we're pouring into each other and finding out what's going on. He saw the need as his company has just blown up over the last 17 years. And I was there at the beginning, but I wasn't involved in the company. But really what happened is I had this program called Gaston House, structured sober living in Dallas. And Gordo and I's friendship really expanded. And I go, I asked him to take on a couple of guys that I saw potential in. And so, he saw these guys that were doing the work when it came to recovery, but then they were doing the work for him. And one of them in particular, they came through my program from a little small town in Virginia, now married with three kids, his parents even moved down here, in his mid to late 30s, but he hired him about I think almost 14 years ago, maybe 13 years ago. But he saw that, hey, this guy, there's something different about him. And so as that went on, Gordo and I, he would bring up situations with employees and stuff like that. He goes, I want to- I like his mission, to build a legacy for people to reach their God-given potential, with his mission statement as a construction company. What is a person's God-given potential? And Greg doing his own work on himself and seeing the wounds and the different trauma and the messages that have driven him, they've driven him for success in a lot of ways. But he wanted that to be part of the fabric of Gordon Highlander, and so that over the last few years has morphed into if someone is struggling in a marriage or an addiction or other things like that, it is like I've met with them individually, and in the last couple years, now it's really morphed into, hey, how can Chico coach our executive team, how can Chico then come in alongside and coach maybe a different supervisor for people underneath them to unpack? Because what I love about it, and that's one of the coolest things, what I love about it is, it's like he's going, man, what is getting in the way from some of these people that are working at Gordon Highlander to reach their God-given potential, and it might be wounds or messages from their childhood, from family, from old relationships, and what's blocking that. So, let's create a safe space to do that. I mean, so a couple of his higher-up guys I'm coaching, and sometimes it might be just a relationship with their wife and how that might be playing out in relationship with other people that are underneath him in this block. Gordo and I were in Nashville, and I introduced him to some friends of mine. It's called Walker Lumber and Supply. It's these guys that went to SMU with me. And their company has blown up. and they're trying to do some of that same stuff at Walker Lumber and Supply in Nashville, and it's wild to see. They have a whole second chance program. And so, it's like I see companies now going, hey, there's more to EBITDA, there’s more to the bottom line. How do we create an environment to really have that safe place to have healthy vulnerability, not unhealthy vulnerability? And so, I talk a lot about what's healthy vulnerability versus unhealthy vulnerability, what needs to be shared and stuff like that and how to create that space. So that's what I'm doing. 

Chris Powers: So are you kind of like a company chaplain? Like are you on call? Do people call you on a one-off, hey, I need to talk to you about something? Do you have like a regular cadence that you show up and everybody knows you're going to be there? Like what is your actual, if you had to describe like your routine, maybe daily, weekly, monthly, annually? 

Chico West: So I have some of the employees I do via Zoom because they might not be here in the Dallas-Fort Worth area. Some of them come in. 

Chris Powers: Do you put like a cool background? Everything is going to be okay. 

Chico West: Yeah, that would be good. I'm going to try to do that. But some of them I do that. Some of them come to my office. And then there's times that I go and I spend time with the executive team, Brad and Steve and Mandy. And so, I'll be in there in that part to give just- Mandy's the human relations person. And so, it's like, how to bring that human capital. What's going on psychologically? How do we step into some uncomfortable conversations with someone that's struggling? And so, I'll do that. Last week or the week before, I was heading up north for me, and I swung by there and just walked around for about 45 minutes and stopped in and talked to some people. So the company knows, oh, that's Chico. They will reach out. I think when Gordo was on your podcast and he had that team member that took his life, I was up there on call and I showed up. Brad reached out. And so it wasn't Gordo that reached out to me. Gordo was out of the state. Brad called, hey, can you come up and spend some time with some staff members? And one of the staff members was the one that was at the house and called the police. And so there's just a lot of those things. And so, it's unique when you see a company so invested in their employees. A lot of people have HR departments and big companies, you're going to have HR and you're going to have, hey, different resources. But no, we're going to create this space. And I'll get some people at Gordon Highlander, hey, here's a good therapist or what do you need to do here? And so, I'm kind of coach, chaplain, therapist, all in one. 

Chris Powers: Do you want to do it for more companies is it kind of a...? 

Chico West: I would love to do it for more companies, especially companies that the leadership is bought into it. Are you doing your own work? That's what my group, and it started at Onsite, my Onsite Notorious Sinners group, it is like, hey, are you willing to do the work? So, it's kind of modeled after the Notorious Sinners of how do we do that? And what is cool is Miles and I are talking more and more about this too, it's really more about, are you familiar with regenerative farming?

Chris Powers: No.

Chico West: Regenerative farming, there's farms here in Texas, there's a really cool one in Georgia. A guy wrote a book and has a big podcast on YouTube. It's getting the soil back to the way it was meant to be by God, where they're not pumping it full of fertilizer or nitrogen and getting as much out of it as possible. Let's look at the soil and let the chickens crap on it. Let some weeds come up. Get it back to the way it's meant to be. And so there's this big concept on regenerative leadership and regenerative counseling. It's like not all weeds or traumas or wounds are bad. They make us who we are. And so, when- there's almost this, like going back to trauma, it's like, oh, trauma is bad. No, it defined me. Yes, I lost my dad. You've lost your father. But it's defined me. It's made me a better person. Sometimes it can paralyze us and we can get paralyzed there. But getting back to kind of regenerative leadership or regenerative farming, like the concept of regenerative farming, the way God intended it to be, I think we can do that same concept in business. What did God intend? There's nothing wrong with making money. There's nothing wrong with profits. But what is our mission? Are we really giving lip service to, hey, we're really about our employees? Do they have the freedom to go, hey, I'm struggling, I might need a mental health day, and then having the discernment to go, are they working me, or do they really need a mental health day? Does that help?

Chris Powers: Yeah. Do you think, on that token, do you think that it seems like no matter what you watch or what you read or what you listen to, everything's like mental health, mental health, mental health, mental health. Do you think it's overplayed a little bit? Cause to like what you just said about trauma and everything, like mistakes and failure and that's all good for you. Like that's God's way of preparing you in different ways for the future and being able to be resilient. And obviously there's terrible traumas and things you wish never happened. But I think we've also swung to this point where it's like, if you blame everything on mental health, you can train a whole generation almost to not really take accountability or to be able to process or function anything that isn't like the way it would be written, like perfectly written in a book. Everything else is like a mental health issue. 

Chico West: We're going to have struggles. And yes, sometimes it's good to pull yourself up by your bootstraps. I don't know about an 8 year old, like the example I gave. 

Chris Powers: Yeah, there's nuance to it. 

Chico West: Yes. And so yes, the mental health field has been overplayed and I'm in the field, and there's bad therapy out there, and not all therapy is good therapy. And if your therapist isn't working on you to graduate out of therapy, you might want to get a new therapist. It's like, man, those things happen all the time. Hey, I think it's time for you to move on or take a break for a few years, come back up when life circumstances change. I'm seeing a few guys that came through Gaston House 12, 15 years ago, they weren't married, they didn't have a career. Now they're in this new place, they're not using, they're sober, but they have kids and mortgage and all this other stuff, and they're not knowing how to process that and their stuff like that. Okay, they come back in and we're unpacking some stuff and what are the old things happening? But yes, not everybody needs therapy, but we do need relationship. 

Chris Powers: For sure. How would you know if you were- you said not all therapy is good therapy. How would you know it was like not a good situation? What would be a tell that things are, it's not a great therapist for you, maybe a bad match, or just in general, like not a therapist that's succeeding?

Chico West: Oh. If you don't have goals set up with your therapist, if there isn’t, okay, hey, what are you trying to get out of this? If your therapist is not encouraging you to dig deeper and maybe is cosigning your behavior. And there might be great- I don't know. There's some bad therapy out there, but there's also some- just like there's bad real estate guys, there's bad construction guys, it's not any different, bad doctors. It's not any different than any industry. Do your homework, reach out.

Chris Powers: Does the fact that private equity is getting into recovery and counseling and all these services probably mean it's going to get better or worse? 

Chico West: Well, in the treatment industry, I believe private equity has stolen the heart of the mission of a lot of programs. And a lot of times people, they're too consumed with the bottom dollar and how to cut costs. And how do you cut costs when maybe some of your best employees are your techs, a tech's kind of like an RA in a dorm, and it's not as much about the therapist and how you need to pay some of those techs more because they've created that safe space. They get away with how do we cut cost and the heart and mission. Now the people that sell to private equity, that's great. I basically was forced out of my programs to basically private equity. I mean, it was big billionaire guys, but both those programs are shut down. They ran them, they got to a bottom line instead of the heart. And it's a bummer. But God had a different plan for me and hopefully for them too.

Chris Powers: All right. We'll bring it on this one. If somebody's listening to this, maybe in a tough spot, like what would be your, what would you tell them? 

Chico West: A lot of times, if somebody's listening to this, I bet you it's people that have taken risk in business that have taken risk in other things to be successful in those areas. But if they could take a risk to find someone to share in that safe place, they can spur them on to find out that that place that they might need for help, they maybe don't need for help. Not every alcoholic or drug addict needs treatment. A lot don't need treatment. That's where sometimes bad therapy happens. Oh, they need treatment. No, I've worked with a lot of people that didn't actually need treatment. But to find that person or that someone that you go okay, hey, I need to share this because it might be messages, it might not even be anything addiction wise, it might be the false messages in your head, but you feel all alone is to take that risk. You take other risks. How come you don't take this risk? 

Chris Powers: Chico, you're the man.

Chico West: Chris, you're the man. 

Chris Powers: Thanks for joining me today. 

Chico West: Hey, I loved it. Thank you for reaching out. 

Chris Powers: This was awesome. 

Chico West: It was a lot of fun.