#385 - Andrew Yaffe - CEO @ Dude Perfect - The Business of the World’s Most Trusted Entertainment Brand

Chris Powers: Andrew, thanks for joining me today. 

Andrew Yaffe: Thanks for having me. 

Chris Powers: Appreciate it. I want to start in the NBA, and you actually said something before we pressed record that I hadn't picked up on. Your first job was a ticket pricing analyst. What did that job kind of teach you about maybe the NBA or just entertainment in general, sports entertainment? 

Andrew Yaffe: Yeah, my first job, so this was 15 years ago, maybe more. My first job at the NBA was helping teams better price their tickets and looking at the differences between season tickets and individual game tickets to identify trends and how to think smarter about how they approach pricing. I think the big thing I learned was that teams and big businesses didn't always know what they didn't know. What we were doing was using secondary market data, so StubHub and things like that, which were in their very early days at the time, understanding what the free market paid for tickets and comparing that to what teams were selling their tickets for, and they were vastly different. There was no real rhyme or reason to how teams were pricing. And it was my first awareness that these icons of business, these teams that have been around for 50 years, the leagues that were making a lot of money at the time hadn't put a lot of thought into this and that there was a lot of room for improvement and that you saw upstarts like StubHub and like ticket brokers making a lot of money off that inefficiency. So it really opened my eyes to the fact that smart entrepreneurs and smart businesspeople can find gaps in the market and not only make a lot of money, but also in many ways, serve the customer better, that they can solve problems that were marketing inefficiencies, and they could fix them. And so, it's something I've been very mindful to ever since about how I can approach business opportunities like that. 

Chris Powers: And I'm assuming that gap has probably closed over the last 15 years. Like, did they figure it out?

Andrew Yaffe: I'd like to think we made some progress. It's certainly smaller. It's certainly smaller. There's still some tips and tricks and reasons why there are some inefficiencies, but it's in a much healthier place now than it was then. 

Chris Powers: I was just thinking about something, and this may have nothing to do with what you're doing now. It was relating to the other day, not a political comment, but Trump had Kid Rock and they did an executive order that was basically banning like algorithms and these people from buying all the concert tickets and then repricing them and selling them for much higher. Does that also happen in sports and did it impact sports? 

Andrew Yaffe: It does. Yes. So less on the algorithmic perspective. And because just that on sale when all the tickets are made available looks a little bit different. And because season tickets are the vast majority of ticket purchases and those are more human to human than bought via algorithm. But there are similar inefficiencies where in many cases, and this is something that used to be a bigger problem, ticket brokers would buy thousands of season tickets where they would find that they were not priced effectively, and then they would go and resell those. So in that case, it was humans, and sometimes they were using bots or tools to do so. So yes, it was historically a big problem in sports. Some of it's been solved, but some of it remains. 

Chris Powers: All right. So that's where you started. You ended at the NBA as the EVP, head of social, digital, and original content of the NBA. So, what were you doing at the end of your career at the NBA? 

Andrew Yaffe: Yeah, in that role, I oversaw every piece of content the NBA created aside from the live broadcast. So, our social feeds and all the highlights we created, our app, our streaming service, League Pass, our documentaries business, so all documentary content in terms of production and editing and distribution deals was my team, as well as overall content strategy for the company and measurement, analytics, ratings, things like that. So, on a day-to-day basis, we were churning out hundreds if not thousands of pieces of content. We were serving a number of our brand partners as well as media partners and ensuring that we were living up to our contracts. We were also engaging with millions, if not hundreds of millions of fans on a daily basis through all of our social channels. 

Chris Powers: And I know this is a big question, so maybe we can take it piece by piece. When did you start that? When did you start in the content role? What year was it? Do you remember? 

Andrew Yaffe: I started during the pandemic. So, it must've been 2020 or 2021. 

Chris Powers: So content was like a thing obviously. Like even in that four or five years you were in that role, what was content like even in 2020, because it's evolving so quickly, like what's interesting, what's not to where when you ended, like we weren't doing this type of content when I started, by the time we were done, this was in vogue?

Andrew Yaffe: Yeah, I mean, even so I started, like I said, right at the beginning of the pandemic. I think a couple of the trends that emerged very rapidly throughout, one was vertical content. Everything went from horizontal tv-based 16x9 content to more phone-based 9x16 content. And you saw the emergence of TikTok and Instagram Reels and YouTube Shorts, and that became a huge trend. And one thing, it's intuitive after the fact, basketball works really well in vertical content because players are tall and action is vertical. And we actually saw that dunks and three pointers and things like that fit very nicely into a phone. We can be very zoomed in because the people who shoot content can be sitting courtside or baseline compared to many other sports where people are further away and phones can't capture content as well or where action is more horizontal. You think about a pass in football, it actually doesn't translate as well to vertical content. And so, this is something that we, when TikTok was starting to become a thing, we leaned in very hard, and we saw the opportunity in vertical. I would say that was one major trend that shifted pretty drastically. And we actually redesigned the NBA app to include significantly more vertical content because of that. A second thing that I would say was a major trend was the use of AI from 2020 through 2024, 2025 is drastically different. We were using AI editing tools on a- every day for thousands of pieces of content. For every NBA game, we produced a 10 minute recap of that game that is entirely generated with artificial intelligence, that a human drops in the thumbnail and clicks post, and that is essentially all the human interaction with it. And we were doing hundreds of those a day. And that was an amazing, I mean, that actually started... we started using those tools in probably 2016, 2017. But the rate of pickup there was massive and how much more we were able to generate. So, the amount of content we could create and just the scale of our business grew immensely as those tools unlocked just amazing editing capabilities. 

Chris Powers: I'm trying to figure out the best way to ask this. If you were to say like, hey, you can't, and we're talking about the NBA, but we'll get into Dude Perfect a little bit, especially like the live audience shows that you do. But if you said like, hey, guests can't bring a phone, like part of the digital content strategy is like everybody's got a phone. You've got 60,000 cameramen or women at your disposal. If you took away everybody's cell phone, how big of an impact would that have on any type of big entertainment, sports entertainment brand? Is it really dependent on people also being able to take content? 

Andrew Yaffe: It's interesting because we noticed, we actually did analytics on this where you would see a highlight of a player doing something amazing and then you'd see a fan capturing that same moment from a fan angle on their phone. And the fan angle would actually outperform the NBA produced angle. Even though we had 90 million Instagram followers, the fan angle would outperform. And so we actually started sending our social producers to places in the stands to capture from the fan angle. And you would see those, we'd usually pair either a photo or sort of a highlight, the produced highlight with the fan angle. And you saw those outperform. And so, there is like a lot of, I think, what happens, especially on social media, is that fans want to feel like they were at the game and sometimes overly produced content or like the perfect camera angle doesn't do that. Whereas sitting in the stands and having either whether it's a random fan or one of our staff members at the time capturing that and distributing that makes the audience feel like they're actually at the game. Same thing with a lot of the behind the scenes content that we're able to bring. It just takes people into the arena in a way that watching on TV doesn't. And so, I think it's a massive benefit that people get to talk about their experience, people get to show highlights and show how awesome it is to be in a venue for one of these live events. I think it's huge for the popularity and virality of these events. 

Chris Powers: Was the NBA China any different than the NBA? From like a content perspective or just like how it was run? 

Andrew Yaffe: Yes. So NBA China is actually run as a separate entity. So, I was very close with my colleagues there and we shared a lot of sort of tips and tricks, but it's actually run as an independent company that the NBA has taken on sort of outside investors in certain areas, NBA China being one of them. And so that's actually, it was a different content team. So, all of our- and a lot of the platforms that we operated on, whether that's YouTube or Instagram or Twitter at the time, weren't available in China. And so a lot of what we were doing was not catering to the Chinese audience. And so, we had a specific team dedicated to reach the Chinese audience. 

Chris Powers: And I'm assuming it's like this with Dude Perfect. And I'm assuming it's like, hey, here are all the ways we distribute content, we're going to go film this game, or we're going to go film this thing. All this long form stuff's going to come in and everybody's going to start chopping it up. It's going to fall into its verticals. And it's just like you're just manufacturing it. Once the idea has been set, this is what we do on Instagram. This is what we do on Snap. This is just kind of coming in and you're just pumping it out. How much of it is like let's do something unique this week or let's think of a new way to get this out, or is that just like every six months, you kind of look at what's working and not and keep pivoting? 

Andrew Yaffe: It was on a daily basis because you were looking at, whether it was algorithm changes or trend changes on the platforms, whether it was exciting new formats that started to work, we were constantly revising how we were approaching content and trying to improve. It wasn't like, hey, we've got the magic playbook and let's just run it. We were very self-critical in terms of what was working and what wasn't on various platforms. And it's one of the beauties of social and digital content in general is you get very real and very clear feedback on what works and what doesn't. And so, every single night, we'd have 25 posts on Instagram and we could see what performed well and what didn't and be able to analyze and unpack what it was. Like it's not like we were producing content into the ether and just trying to do what our heart thought was best. Like we were getting very clear and direct feedback, and it dictated what we would do the next night and the next night and the next night. 

Chris Powers: All right, one more question then we're going to move to dudes. Doing research for this episode, I noticed the NFL has grown, but most big sports entertainment brands, I think this is a perfect lead into Dude and why the opportunity is so great, is kind of declining. Almost every major league sports besides the NFL, according to Grok and Chat GPT, is not just falling off a cliff, but it's not growing like it used to be. For some reason, the NFL is. Is there a reason why? And maybe rebut that. 

Andrew Yaffe: Yeah, I don't- It depends on how you define it. From a... not to sound offensive about my former colleagues, from a global perspective, the NBA is still continuing to grow quite rapidly. From a social perspective, the NBA is significantly bigger than the NFL or its peers. I think if you're looking at TV ratings, which I'm guessing is what is feeding the AI algorithms, it's a complicated mix of factors. I think, yes, most of the leagues have been pretty flat over the last four or five years, and there's the way Nielsen calculates the data has changed a little bit, and so there's a lot of stuff under the surface that's driving that. I would say, at least, and in all honesty, I think most of the leagues would say their popularity has been basically flat in the US over the last five years. I think the NFL's done a really good job in certain areas over the last several years in terms of launching new assets. I think the popularity of certain teams and players drives a lot of that in terms of who's winning and who's in what games and things like that. And so, I think they've done a really good job there. I think that's been a big driver. I think there's a- it's hard to unpack sometimes what is driving that, but I think people sometimes read too much into certain tea leaves or trends, especially around ratings, that like it's really complicated what is driving this versus that. Like, I look at what the NBA was able to generate in its recent media deals. Like, the dollar speaks for itself, clearly there's a lot of demand and interest in consuming those rights. I think the NHL just did a massive deal in Canada to renew their rights. Major League Baseball has their rights coming up in a few years, and I think they'll do very well. So, there's clearly still a lot of demand and a lot of interest in sports. And I think it is a good transition into what I'm doing now because I think the type of demand has shifted a little bit and that audience has shifted a little bit. But we can talk more about that as we get to Dude Perfect. 

Chris Powers: Let’s talk about it. I'm a golfer. That's my number one sport. I’d say the things golf harder, like Tiger Woods not being a part of golf I think was a bigger deal than most people thought. Now this Masters was like the greatest, like the ratings were off the charts, but there was a special thing there. But like on the whole, Tiger Woods being gone has been tough. It's fractured now between live- but then you're seeing like all these golf creators, and their YouTube followings are going through the roof, and it's like almost more fun to watch some amateur golfer play around with his buddies than it is to watch. So that's a perfect segue into like what's going on at Dude Perfect. So, you're at the NBA. Were you looking or did you get a call?

Andrew Yaffe: I got a phone call. I actually, it's funny, I, two years ago, spoke at a YouTube upfront event, and the speakers were myself, Venus Williams, a tennis player, and Dude Perfect. So, I like to joke I was the bathroom break in the middle. And got to know the guys a little bit in the green room. We started chatting, and obviously I'd been familiar with their work, but getting to know them in that setting and hearing how thoughtful they are about the business and how ambitious and savvy they are about their audience opened my eyes. And so, when I got the phone call about it, it immediately piqued my interest because I knew that, sort of had that small connection to them. And so wasn't looking, was very happy at the NBA, had an awesome role there. It's a great place to work. But when I got the opportunity to have this conversation and understood just how powerful this brand is and what the seat entails, it was an incredibly compelling opportunity. 

Chris Powers: Okay. Expand on that. What does the seat entail from your perspective? My perspective, having known Jason and a few others, and I mean this with like the greatest respect for the dudes, is I think some people think like there must have been this big business behind it all. And a lot of the story is like no, it was five guys that just loved creating content and almost boot strapped their way to being the largest sports YouTube account there was. So, as you looked at the role, like what did you see that you were stepping into last October? 

Andrew Yaffe: I think it was this unique mix that's very hard to find of an incredibly established brand with a gigantic audience. We've got 61 million subscribers on YouTube. As you said, we’re the top sports account on the platform, three times bigger than the account I was running at the NBA, which I used to say was the biggest sports account on YouTube. And it's that size and reach and scale with real flexibility and growth opportunity because it is not fully baked, what this company is. And the fact that it's a highly profitable, well-capitalized company that's still at the beginning of its journey, you don't find that very often. And we have a lot of resources at our disposal. We have more opportunities than we are able to process today. We have significant growth if we're able to capture it. And honestly, I spend most of my time determining which things we tackle and saying no rather than identifying new opportunities to go after, because there's a lot of brands, there's a lot of opportunities, there's a lot of people that are fans of the brand or understand our impact, understand our reach and want to work with us, which is a great place to be. It's a great problem to have to be choosing between great opportunities I don't take for granted. But that's the seat and that's the opportunity we have in front of us is to take something that millions of people across the world love, truly love and trust and transform that or build on that to build new products, new experiences, more content that those people will also love. 

Chris Powers: All right, you kind of led into one thing I wanted to get to, which is, as I understand it, there's so many opportunities. And so, as you think about it, what are your filters for, we got to at least stay focused on something because they're coming at you every day? So how does something get an immediate no and how is it, okay, we will spend time on this, and ultimately how does it become a yes?

Andrew Yaffe: Yeah, the first thing is we are very much a mission-driven company, and our mission is to be the most trusted brand in family entertainment. And so, if something is a- if there's even a question as to whether something not only meets that bar, but actually reinforces that, it's a no. And so, whether that's alcohol sponsorships, sports betting sponsorships, those are immediate nos for us. And I joke with the guys, the fact that over the last decade in America, that they've built a profitable sports media company without taking a single sports betting dollar. It's something that no one else has done and is a testament to what they've been able to build. But those are things that we hold dear and I think our audience understands that and expects that of us. I’ve had, since I've taken this role, hundreds of parents say to me, we love Dude Perfect because we know that our kids are going to sit in front of the TV or on a phone and we can trust what comes out, is on your channel. We've built an app that we have a team of parents watch every piece of content, whether it's ours or we have now ten plus other creators that contribute content to it, and those parents approve every piece of content that goes on that app because we want my four, five and six year olds or my four year old and six year old, but kids at that age to be able to watch it safely and feel good about what they see, whether that's a piece of content or an ad or a product that they're being sold. That's critical. And so, we get pitched a lot of things, some of which are great ideas, but if they're not going to reinforce that trust with parents, it's not worth it to us and it's not worth the time to have the conversation. 

Chris Powers: Okay. I was down at my neighbor's house the other day and we were talking about we had just gotten back from spring break. So, I was like, did you let your kids on an iPad? Yes. He has a son. He's like, he can only watch one thing. It's Dude Perfect. Because I can literally- I don't care which video he watches. I don't have to worry about one of them being...

Andrew Yaffe: I love to hear it.

Chris Powers: Then if it meets that criteria, it's like, okay, there's still a whole nother, the world is your oyster... you can take it. So how are you thinking about what to pay attention to? 

Andrew Yaffe: So next filter for us is really first mission and then brand. And those two things sound similar, but when we say brand, there's four words that we come back to, which is sports, family, fun, and competition. And we look at things to say, does this meet that brand? Is it something that will feel Dude Perfect? Because I think the guys in particular and we as a company take a lot of pride in the way we approach things needs to feel different and it needs to feel like a Dude Perfect approach to a piece of content or a product or an experience. We really don't like slapping our logo on something that exists. We don't like licensing our brand out for a run of the mill product. We look for things that reinforce those brand principles because that's what, again, what our audience expects of us. And so we're looking for things that, again, not only meet that criteria but actually help reinforce it so that when people go to Walmart and buy a Dude Perfect body armor, like there's something fun about it, there's a challenge incorporated in it, the way we incorporate it into our videos has some sort of challenge or fun component to it. It's not just your standard product that we don't stand behind.

Chris Powers: Okay. So, it's meets mission and brand, but then there's like... I was reading there could be a theme park, there could be a drink, there could be an event, there could be like a million things. Maybe not a million...

Andrew Yaffe: Theres a lot. But after that, yeah. I mean, then we really start to get into the numbers and understand what is worth time, investment, what makes sense financially. Obviously, we're looking to invest in things that are going to be sustainable long-term businesses for us. And that's something that I think we are very privileged to have the investors that we do that have very clearly tasked me with build a long-term growth business. This is not about taking short-term dollars. This is not about finding as many brand deals as we can find. We're really looking to find opportunities that we can invest in, whether that's invest our time or our talent or our capital, to build meaningful, sustainable businesses. And I think that's how we approach things, is what is something that can yield a real long-term business for us that is something that we're proud of and can stand behind.

Chris Powers: Why do you think family entertainment, I mean, we were talking about it before we pressed record, you said something interesting. You're like, what the dudes offer is like the parents can watch it with their kids. Most content now is just algorithmic. It's like there's something for the kid that the dad or mom would never watch. Is there a reason as you look into it now, like why did we shift? Is it cause the algorithm said we can make more money splitting everybody up? 

Andrew Yaffe: Yeah. I mean, I think that's certainly part of it, is that as content delivery has gotten more personalized, that includes personalization, some trying to reach parents, some trying to reach kids. I think there's a lot of streaming content out there that is very specific to an audience. I think if you look at- I think another big piece of it is that Hollywood has really bifurcated to big blockbusters and really taken out the middle and then has independent films. And the middle is where a lot of those movies that I watched as a kid with my parents, that's where they lived. They weren't going to be billion dollar superhero movies, but they were really just good family entertainment. And they're few and far between right now because it's really hard to get a mid-sized movie made. And I think there's real demand for it. I have, as I said, a six-year-old and a four-year-old, and I've watched a lot of content with them, and I strongly prefer watching Dude Perfect content with them to pretty much anything else. And it was one of the tests as I was looking to come here. It's like, I sat them down and we watched a lot together, and they're now obsessive fans because they like it and I like it and it's one of the things that's just on in our house quite a bit. And I don't think that's because I work there. It's because my kids, they didn't watch any NBA, even when I worked there. And so, they're a really good focus group for me. But I think there's just a really big business opportunity and a really big family need for those sorts of entertainment options. 

Chris Powers: All right. I want to go back to getting here for a second. This is more on just like leadership style. So you were in the NBA, which I'd call it more of like maybe corporate culture. 

Andrew Yaffe: Yes. I would not object to that. 

Chris Powers: We can call it corporate culture. Big, just different type of business. And then you're coming into what's more of maybe let's call it a small to medium sized business with more of a creator led culture. Were there things that you're like, I need to learn to do X, Y, and Z or shifts I'm going to have to make in my thinking, or like how did you think about arriving? Obviously content, you knew it really well. You were running one of the, maybe the biggest content platforms in professional sports. But just like the culture was going to be a lot different. How did you approach it? 

Chris Powers: The group I ran at the NBA was over 300 people. 

Chris Powers: Wow. Just in content? 

Andrew Yaffe: Just in content. Yeah. And now our team is about 35, I think I was the 25th employee when I started. So it was definitely an adjustment. I think the biggest differences were speed and sort of checks and balances, that if I wanted to do something at the NBA, for the most part, it took... I couldn't just make a decision and do it. There were a lot of other parties I had to bring along, there were a lot of approvals I needed. It was not always the most streamlined process. Because you're dealing with a big brand with a lot of risk and a lot of contracts and it's a complicated business. I think coming here, that was one of the adjustments is, oh, we can just do things and getting comfortable with the fact that if I make a decision to go do something, by that night we could do it. Or I can walk out to my social team and say, have we thought about doing this post? And within an hour, that's posted and has millions of views. That freedom and flexibility has been refreshing. It also comes with risk and just trying to be mindful of what that risk is. I think the other thing I've been very mindful of is the company, what the guys have built is amazing and has a very specific culture that's built out of who they are as people. And I'm coming from a different culture and the last thing I want to do is ruin or overly affect what exists. And we've tried to be very mindful of how do we maintain what has made this place great for 16 years and evolve it around the edges and tweak certain things and help. I met with- meeting with folks on my team this morning, was talking about just ways I can provide additional whether it's resources or coaching or guidance or removing certain obstacles or helping them be more effective because they're great at what they do. And I think I have other skills and different capabilities than maybe some folks on my team have had. But I want to make sure that I'm really just a blocker removing some of the frustrations or impediments that they're facing. 

Chris Powers: Okay. So, what's the balance of there's, like you said, this incredibly unique culture, five dudes that have always been, I believe, kind of the idea, they're the idea generators of like, let's go do this video. Then you come in. Are they still generating all the ideas? And is there any ever pushback now? Like, are you allowed to go, maybe this one would be better? What's that like balance? 

Andrew Yaffe: Well, the guys are amazing to work with. Like it's not- the last thing I should be doing is telling them ideas. They're the reason the company is what it is their creativity and their really connection to the audience. And they're just incredibly savvy around what is going to work and what isn't. And sometimes I'll hear an idea, and I'm like, I can't possibly... that can't possibly work, and then it gets a hundred million views. And so, I try to be helpful where I can in terms of how to develop ideas or structure videos so that they perform well or think about ways to use my, either my network or connections or knowledge of the business to improve them. So, whether that's, one of the first videos we did when I started was with Steph Curry and the Golden State Warriors. And like I had some unique knowledge that I could apply to that video in terms of like, how do we best work with the team and how do we ensure that the league is promoting that? And how do we find the right angles in to make that high performing? But like when it came to what, one of the elements of that video was we played golf in the arena with Steph Curry. Tyler and Steph played against each other, wiffle ball golf from the top of the arena down to the court. Like, that's all Tyler, and I'm not going to stand in the way on that creative. And so, I think it's been a really strong relationship so far. Like all relationships, I think a lot of discussion, a lot of getting to know each other, a lot of trust-building. But I think we're... It's been really fun so far. I think they see the value in my experience and I obviously see the value in their experience. 

Chris Powers: Yeah. What's the- you said perform well and help or I can help maybe videos perform well or structure them differently. If I just asked you like what makes some- like if you got the same piece of content that I got, you've got years of experience on how to make that content pop. What just comes to your mind of like here are basic things you would do to make a video perform better?

Andrew Yaffe: I mean, there are a couple of simple examples for YouTube specifically. One is video length. So now on YouTube, more than half of all YouTube consumption is on the television rather than phone or iPad or desktop. As such, longer content gets watched on TV. And so the YouTube wants and is seeking content that is a lot longer. So our first videos at Dude Perfect years ago were three minutes or five minutes. Now, that Steph Curry video was 30 minutes long. And continuing to ensure that our videos are long enough that they are getting sort of the right treatment is something that I push on. That's one example. A second example is translations. So YouTube is a global platform. The vast majority of its users are not English speaking and not in the United States. At the NBA, 80% of our total consumption on YouTube is outside the US. And so, one of the things that's just necessary at this point, and I think is really good for growing a global audience, is to translate your content into new languages. And so that's something that we've introduced in the last couple of videos is now we're posting our content in multiple languages and reaching a lot of new audiences. And that's not trivial to do when you've got five, at least five characters in every video who do a lot of creative activities. Sometimes they don't translate perfectly, but it's something that we're really excited to get started with and continue to- our audience is more than half international. And as we do more translations, I think you're going to see that just continue to grow. 

Chris Powers: Can you speak to like the gravity of YouTube? Like if you had to describe is it the biggest and the baddest, what makes it so great compared to others, like for somebody listening that doesn't understand the power of YouTube, like how would you explain it to them? 

Andrew Yaffe: There is more YouTube consumed on television than I believe it's Netflix, Amazon, and Disney combined. And that's just on TV. So, then you add in phones and tablets and other devices, and YouTube dwarfs the other platforms. That's also US only where YouTube is significantly larger than any of those platforms outside the US. I mean, there are billions and billions of hours consumed on on YouTube on a regular basis. We're reaching- just the unique viewers you reach are incomparable to other platforms, and it's long form video. It's not reaching someone with a snippet. It's reaching hundreds of millions of unique viewers, which not a lot of platforms are able to do. 

Chris Powers: Why? Why is it the biggest and the baddest? Is it something about how it's set up? How long it's been around? The familiarity of it? 

Andrew Yaffe: Yeah, I think it's all of that. But I think it's also the only platform that allows long form, or not allows but that it really encourages long form traditionally horizontal storytelling and user generated, user generated content where everyone can post, and like I think it is- I think the algorithm and the way the platform is set up is remarkably good at finding an audience for the right content. And so, when you spend a lot of time on it and when you're refining what you like to watch, there is always more. There's always more for you to consume. And it's remarkably good at finding the things that you're going to like. And there's certainly some pros and cons to that, but it's been an incredibly powerful tool, not just for us, but for thousands of creators in finding that audience and reaching an audience and being able to build businesses off platform for that audience. 

Chris Powers: When you say YouTube on TV, do you just mean like streaming it from your phone or your laptop onto a big screen? Or are you talking about people subscribing to YouTube TV? 

Andrew Yaffe: Not YouTube TV, the cable service. The YouTube app on a smart TV is the primary mechanism for consumption. 

Chris Powers: Yeah, it's funny. People send me photos of them watching this podcast. And actually, I haven't adopted that yet where I watch it on TV. I watch it all from my phone or computer. But they'll be like on a treadmill and there's my podcast on a 60 inch screen in the gym. And I'm like, man, I've not done that yet. 

Andrew Yaffe: I need a 16 inch TV in my gym. That's what I need. Maybe I'd work out more. But YouTube has also become, and video podcasts on YouTube have become- YouTube, I believe they said they're the number one podcasting platform in the world now because people like watching podcasts. And it's again, really, really good at finding an audience. And so, you've seen a lot of podcasters adopt YouTube distribution and it's just really valuable to them. 

Chris Powers: Yeah, it's not like I can go upload a podcast episode on Netflix or Amazon or anything else. It's got to go to YouTube. Relating to like the videos, I'd imagine when they first started, like I'm talking about their first couple videos, it was probably like an iPhone or some like recorder. 

Andrew Yaffe: Digital camera. 

Chris Powers: You're just watching them do it. And then they just post it. There wasn't a lot of professional editing. Has that shifted? Like, does it now go from like, we're still going to capture it the same way, but the amount of editing we do has increased dramatically? And what's that balance of it feeling kind of like raw and authentic versus very super tight and professional where it almost feels like you are watching a movie? The dudes do a good job of making you feel like you're just kind of watching them out and doing their thing. 

Andrew Yaffe: I think it's a finely tuned balance. The leaders of our production and post-production team have been with the company and the guys for a decade. And so, they're very tuned to what makes a Dude Perfect video a Dude Perfect video. And they are- we spend a lot of time and effort on production and editing. We’ve probably got a 15 to 20 person production and editing team now. And I think as we've gone from our first trick shots, like as I said, like what makes one of our videos, I think, unique is we're always trying to go bigger. We're always trying to innovate. We're always trying to do something different. And so you start with 150 foot shot in Kyle Field at Texas A&M up to whatever it is, 700 foot shot off the stratosphere in Las Vegas, the scale continues to grow. And as part of that, the needs of production continue to grow, that it's a lot harder. One iPhone is not going to capture a 700 foot basketball shot. And so, we have a lot more cameras. We're using drones. We're spending a lot more time stitching all that content together. And the styles of content we've created have innovated too. So, it started, again, as trick shots, but now we have scripted comedy content that we produce on a regular basis. We have a variety show over time that we've done 49 episodes of that I would compare to late night TV. And if that was on any network late at night, it wouldn't look that different in terms of quality, the amount of effort, the amount of editing and production that we put into that would look at home. And so, we pride ourselves a lot on, while it still has a casual feel and is really accessible, that the quality continues to grow and innovate and that we're using best-in-class tools and best-in-class production to make great videos. 

Chris Powers: When we got to 10,000 subscribers on our podcast channel, it was like you got some... We got some like new permission to go do something. 

Andrew Yaffe: Congratulations. 

Chris Powers: Thank you very much. Can't even tell you what it is, but it felt good to get the email. You see people when they hit a hundred thousand, I think YouTube sends them like a gold trophy or something that says YouTube. What is it like to work with YouTube when you have 62 million followers? Do you have like a dedicated support team? Do you log into a whole new set of tools that I'll never see? 

Andrew Yaffe: I can't tell you. I've been sworn to secrecy. No, we have a very good relationship with the team at YouTube. I've spent a good amount of time out at their headquarters. 

Chris Powers: Is it in New York?

Andrew Yaffe:  San Bruno, California. They have an office in New York, but their headquarters is in California. I think with a lot of the top creators, they want to make sure we're having a good experience on the platform and are learning about new tools or changes. They want to be able to answer questions for us. So, we're in pretty regular communication with the folks at YouTube. There are no secrets. There's no smokey back rooms where we're determining the algorithm. We don't get any insight into a lot of that. But I think they are there to answer questions and be helpful to us. 

Chris Powers: Was the team even early on just from what you've heard and talking to them, were they as maniacal? Because anybody that's like really good at it is like you got to have good content. Like you can't have 60 million followers without great content. There's no way. And Mr. Beast is pretty famous for saying like he spent his first couple of years, 18 hours a day, looking at every single millisecond of a video. Were the dudes like that early on? Or were they like, we're just going to create sports videos, we don't really care about every frame, just hope people... 

Andrew Yaffe: Very much that. And I think it's part of the charm and part of the authenticity of it is that it's not... And there are certain things that have... that have changed over time. But our ideas start with like what do we think are- what do you think we would like, what do we think our audience would like much more than like here's the specific trend that's working on YouTube, there's all- we joke, there are a lot of trends out there that don't make a lot of sense for us that we're not going to go just jump into something that's inauthentic just because they're getting 50 or 100 million views on YouTube. We want to do things that we think, one, we'd have fun with and, two, are really authentic to who we are. And so, that's really where we start with our creative. And then you can tweak and package around that in terms of what you think is going to work, but that's the heart and it always has been the heart of the company. 

Chris Powers: What's the- is there any data- what are like KPIs or data that you looked at maybe in the NBA that you look at differently? Like what data matters for Dude Perfect that maybe didn't matter in the NBA and vice versa? You've spent a lot of time looking at data. Or is it all kind of the same because it's content? 

Andrew Yaffe: One of the privileges of working at the NBA is we have access to a lot of data and a lot of resources to analyze that data. So I had a very large content strategy and analytics team that was digging into the performance of every post and looking at trends across all the different platforms and providing very regular updates on that. As an early stage or growth stage company, we don't have necessarily all the same resources. So I think we're trying to be very specific with what are the KPIs that matter? How do we analyze data? I'm spending a lot of time on it myself. So, when we post a video, looking at what are our retention rates and our click-through rates, and are there moments in the video where we're seeing drop-off, and really trying to hone in on the things that matter, because we don't have the resources to look at a hundred things and try to figure out what does and doesn't matter. And so I think there was much more of a, I don't want to say boil the ocean, but broad approach at the NBA of, hey, let's look at everything. Whereas here, we have to be really focused on the critical matters just because we don't have the bandwidth to look at everything. 

Chris Powers: Okay. Can I dig in a little more on that? 

Andrew Yaffe: Please.

Chris Powers: So, like YouTube has, if you go to your YouTube studio, it's got an analytics page. So, it just kind of tells you the analytics. How do I ask it? Is that not just the answer, or is there like, is the devil in the details, it's like here are the numbers, but there's something else you're doing with those numbers off screen that is kind of a secret sauce or something? 

Andrew Yaffe: It's a little bit of both. So, we obviously start and spend a lot of time there, but there's a lot underneath the surface. And there's a lot around performance of other content that we're paying very close attention to. So, what are the- we had a short, a golf short last week that had a hundred million views on YouTube and another couple hundred million across other platforms. And you never know when you post one of those things exactly what's going to work. And so we spent a lot of time looking at why did this work? What else was performing at a very high level? Was it because we posted golf the morning of the Masters? Was it the length of the content, the quality of the content? And tried to analyze it against the peer set to understand, oh, here's what actually drove that so that we can then replicate it. So yes, we had all the YouTube studio analytics on like here's what the retention rate was and the average watch time and things like that. But we tried to go a level deeper and to really understand what was driving success for something like that. So, we're able to- I don't want to aspire to- I would love to have a hundred million views on every post, but we want to get close. 

Chris Powers: Well, you might not be able to answer this, but I'll ask it because you brought it up. Did you get to the root of the answer of why it did so well? 

Andrew Yaffe: There's never- you never know. We have some pretty good thoughts, some pretty good perspectives. We're pretty confident that there's a few pieces. It doesn't mean that if we did the exact same thing again, it would resonate in the same way. I think the timeliness of it matters a lot. I think the talent you... we collaborated with another talent for that. And so, who you work with matters a lot. But I think we have a pretty good handle on some of the principles that drove success. 

Chris Powers: Not very sophisticated over here in our YouTube world. We're like, hey, should we post at one o'clock or two o'clock? Like there's all these... 

Andrew Yaffe: It matters. It matters a lot. 

Chris Powers: Does it matter? 

Andrew Yaffe: It does. Yeah. I mean, we get- and we look at a lot of the reporting in terms of like what time is our audience on the platform and what time are comparable, especially for our long-form content, what time are comparable accounts posting? There's a lot of data that suggests... YouTube will tell you who are all the other accounts that feed your account and vice versa, what do your watchers like to watch. And so, it's actually counterintuitive, but when there's more of our competition, if you will, I say that with air quotes, competition on the platform, it's actually better for us because it means that someone who's watching one of those accounts is more likely to finish a video and get recommended one of our videos. And so, we actually want to be posting at the same time as some other big accounts because it actually gets more people on the platform and drives traffic to our videos, which is something that I think is counterintuitive to, hey you want your own window when you're the- if you were on network TV, you don't want any competition. Here, it's like we actually want the competition because you see a spike in traffic to YouTube overall. 

Chris Powers: So, what is the target market? Is it age 6 to 15 or how do you...

Andrew Yaffe: Yeah, I mean, it's really families all together. I would say a sweet spot is probably 6 to 14. 

Chris Powers: Okay. And are they typically watching on mom or dad’s cell phone or iPad or are they streaming on a TV? 

Andrew Yaffe: A lot of TV, yeah. And so our posts typically are Saturday mornings at 9 a.m. Central, and so in a lot of ways, we've replicated the cartoons model that I watched as a kid on Saturday mornings, and that's a- we used to post on Monday mornings and transitioned to Saturday mornings because I think that's been a really resonant time. And we've seen a lot of comparable accounts do the same. 

Chris Powers: We have YouTube. What other big, is there any other big needle movers? Instagram, TikTok, Snapchat?

Andrew Yaffe: All of the above. 

Chris Powers: What's second place? 

Andrew Yaffe: It depends what... This was very true at the NBA and it's also true at Dude Perfect. Each platform is very different. We have a very different audience in terms of demographics, in terms of age, in terms of geography on each of them, and also the type of content that performs well and what you use it for. So, not to overgeneralize, but like our Instagram audience looks a lot more like the parents of our kids than the kids themselves. TikTok is much more of a teenage and older audience, older, later, older kids audience for us. And so the types of content that resonate there look a little bit different than what might work on on certain other platforms. And even within YouTube, YouTube shorts performs very differently than YouTube core because YouTube shorts is primarily on the phone, whereas YouTube is primarily on the TV. And so different ages and demos have access to those. And so, when we're at our best, we're trying to program each of those to look different and cater to each audience in a slightly different way. 

Chris Powers: Okay, you're a parent. I'm a parent. So maybe I'm asking a question myself. But if you look at, like a timeline of like what kids wanted to be for the last 30 years, it was like fireman, doctor, lawyer. And then like we hit a wall, it was like content creator. And that has been like the number one job kids want for a long time. And I think probably the first year that came out, parents were probably like, this is insane that my kid would want to do this. Now we're kind of eight years into this, and those parents are probably like, how do I like nurture this? The question isn't like, should kids aspire to be content creators? Maybe it's just more like, if that is your aspirations, knowing what you know, and maybe this is a better question for the dudes. 

Andrew Yaffe: I was going to say, you're asking the wrong member of Dude Perfect on this one. I stay behind the camera as much as I can. 

Chris Powers: Okay, well, it was just like... 

Andrew Yaffe: No, I think it's a really interesting thing to think about. I'd be curious what the dudes would say. I think it's hard, and it is a long journey and there are a lot of challenges to it, and there are a lot of sacrifices and trade-offs. And there are a lot of people who don't make it, and you don't see those people that often. I think the number one thing for success is creating content that's authentic to who you are. And I think that's why we've been so successful is the dudes in front of the camera look a lot like the dudes behind the camera, and the dudes in the office on a Thursday afternoon are having the same arguments and same competitions and races that then we film and make into a social video or a YouTube video. Because if you want longevity and consistency, whether it's family entertainment or some other niche, like you need to earn that trust and that consistency with an audience. And it's really hard if you're being inauthentic to have longevity in that audience relationship. Like at some point, that will break. You will step out of character, you will do something that violates that trust and it's really hard to get it back. And so if you are super passionate about a niche or a topic that works from a content perspective, and it's really authentic to who you are and something you want to dedicate your life to like it's amazing the lives that- And we were in a fortunate spot where lots of creators come to our office, we have a lot of conversations with them, and it's people are super passionate about a specific topic and have really been authentic and connected with an audience. But it's not a- it's easy to look at the winners or the sort of survivors and see how great the life is, but it's a journey. It's a long journey for a lot of folks. 

Chris Powers: So, a lot of it's survival. It's very one hit wonders. 

Andrew Yaffe: There are many of those, yeah. There are many people who pop up and disappear and it's hard to sustain, like I joke about it with the guys, like from the early days of YouTube, they're one of the few groups that still exists. There's some individuals, but we just hit our 16 year anniversary as a company, which... is unprecedented in the world of content creators. 

Chris Powers: Are all the revenue streams at this point pretty much ad driven or ticket sales? Or are there new ways to make money that are appearing now in the age of AI and everything going on? 

Andrew Yaffe: Yeah, the biggest brand partnerships and advertising are certainly important revenue streams for us. Ticket sales is another important revenue stream. I mean, we'll be on tour this summer and do 21 shows in anywhere up to 20,000 seat venues. And we've sold a lot of tickets already. If anyone is watching, we have a couple of markets. Fort Worth has sold out, has sold out one show and we had to add a second show. And it's pretty close to sold out too. But so ticket sales is another big one. I think where we're focusing a lot of our energy going forward is on other products and experiences. And that's something that is really exciting. We've had a lot of success already with our board game was a top selling board game at Walmart when it was available. We've had footballs and other sporting goods. We've had a number of games and toys. Our beverages have performed incredibly well with our partners. I think you're going to see additional products from us. And then really exciting ones, I think that look, that build out of our live show is what are Dude Perfect experiences? And that could be anything up to and including a theme park, which I think is down the road. But how do we bring what I think is the vibe and ethos and brand and content to millions of fans on a regular basis? Our five guys can only be on tour so much, but I think there's all sorts of different experiences that our fans would love to really be able to touch and feel themselves. And so, we're hard at work building what those are going to look like. 

Chris Powers: And we don't have to speak specific numbers, but we can brag for a second. The live experiences do really well. Not saying you were a skeptic, but you've been through live experiences. Why do these type of experiences do so much better than your average basketball game? Is it because of how much they love the dudes and the culture? Or is there something else to it? 

Andrew Yaffe: Yeah, I mean, I think it's a really unique show that kids and families just love. And again, I think it goes back to the demand for family-based experiences. That most of- our show is that people are buying four and six seats together to come to it as a family, and that's something I think just our society is craving right now. And so, we're incredibly fortunate to be able to deliver really fun and memorable family experiences. 

Chris Powers: All right, there's five dudes. They're going to get older. 

Andrew Yaffe: They're younger than me. So I don't want to... yeah, we have got plenty of time. 

Chris Powers: Do we keep it at five dudes always, or could there be six or seven or 50 dudes? 

Andrew Yaffe: I think they're- I think for us to scale the way we want, the five of them would be the first to say we need help. And I think, I don't know that that means we're going to have a sixth dude or a seventh dude. I think it means we will have other talent under the Dude Perfect umbrella. I think that could be on different channels or in different verticals. I think it could be different sort of focus areas. But I think, going back to what I said before, the authenticity matters so much in this world that like these are five guys who've been friends for 20 years and have grown up together and like that camaraderie comes through in every single video that we do. And I don't think adding a sixth member to the troop, adding someone else to me undermines that authenticity, and so it's really hard to do. And so, I think we're going to be really thoughtful about how we continue to develop and add talent, but it's imperative if we really want to scale and grow the business. 

Chris Powers: So, is the game really not that Dude Perfect could, I'm not saying take market share from the NHL and the NBA and all these, is it more of a collaboration thing, or is like the demographics really showing that like this is more interesting sports to watch than all these professionals? 

Andrew Yaffe: I don't know that it's more interesting. I do think we have really good relationships with all the leagues and teams and athletes. I think the way that six to 18 year olds are consuming sports does look a little bit different. And we have done- have a really good relationship with that audience. And so, I think it becomes a really good collaboration with others who are trying to reach that audience like the leagues are, and the leagues would be the first to tell you that they haven't cracked the code on getting kids to watch live sports. And there's a variety of reasons for that. When I was a kid, I watched a lot of live sports, but it's just not a common practice anymore based on cable and competition and a whole bunch of other stuff. And so, I think we're a really valuable tool to reach a lot of those audiences, but I think it's complimentary. I think that we are huge sports fans and want our audience to love sports the way that we do. And it's a core part of our mission. And it's a core part of our brand, as I said. So I don't view it as a replacement in any way. I think it's better for all of us, and I think that kids today love sports. They love playing sports. They love the players. They love the games as much as they ever have. It's just the way they consume it is very different and looks a lot more like a Dude Perfect than it ever has before. 

Chris Powers: I'm speaking for myself, but if I wanted to get young kids to maybe watch the Olympics more, I wouldn't start the opening act of the Olympics with the devil coming out on stage. If you're watching this from the Olympics, that's my two cents of advice. What's happening to the kids once they're gone? Once they're 18, are they transitioning into watching all these major league sports? Like do you guys have data on like where do they go once they're... 

Andrew Yaffe: I wouldn't say we have great data on that. I would say anecdotes. And it's amazing. One of the amazing things about the longevity of our brand is that we now have parents who are coming back to the brand who were 16, 17, 18 when they started watching Dude Perfect. And now they're parents in their early 30s who have kids in the demo and they're back. I think there's- we spend a lot of time sort of arguing about whether, hey, 18 to 34 year old men is a huge opportunity. Like, how do we better crack that code? And there's certain things, like we talked about around alcohol and sports betting, that we're not going to violate that. We think there's a lot of great content out there for folks who are seeking kind of a different approach. And we have a huge audience among 18 to 34 year olds, but as a focus area, if you want to watch us, we're happy, but we're not going to change the way we approach content to maintain folks to stick with us because I think there are certain things we just aren't going to violate from a brand perspective. 

Chris Powers: I have to go back to this question because I didn't ask it when we're talking about it though. On just the pure analytics side, is there one metric that's king above all else? Not stuff that's qualitative that you're kind of guessing why something might have been good. Is it click-through rate? Is it retention rate? Is there one that's king? 

Andrew Yaffe: I would say, less from like a how is this video going to perform and more is like did we do a good job is average watch time. Because ultimately, it's like did someone who started this video enjoy it? That is like it. At the end of the day, what will make us successful is people like our stuff. Like I think people, ultimately the algorithm is trying to find people who like your stuff. And as a content company, we're trying to create stuff that people like. I think that's the best metric because there's all sorts of games you can play to get people to click in or time things perfectly to get people to start a video. But it actually, and I think views can sometimes be a misleading metric because you can get a lot of people to start it, and if they all click out, it means you didn't do a good job. And we really spend a lot of time on what is the average watch time? How does it compare? What percentage of a video got consumed? What were the points where people stopped watching because that meant that they were bored or they weren't enjoying it? So, I think that's the- percentage consumed or average watch time is the one that I think we take the most pride in. 

Chris Powers: All right. If we're sitting here, and I don't know how far out you plan. 

Andrew Yaffe: Let's say five years. I can't think beyond that. 

Chris Powers: If we were sitting here in five years and everything had gone the way you hoped it would have and the investors thought it would have and the dudes thought it would have, where will the business be in five years? 

Andrew Yaffe: I think we will have identified a number of new product lines that we see as sustainable over the longterm, that there are businesses or types of products that our audience says we trust Dude Perfect to deliver that. And I think we're going through a process now to identify what are the most likely, but I think it's going to take some trial and error. It's going to take some failures that we're okay with. But I think identifying there's two or three products that our audience tells us they love and is consuming regularly. I think there's two or three new experience types that our audience loves and is attending or participating in on a regular basis. I think, in an ideal world, there's a lot more content in a lot of different verticals and new formats and new ways to reach new audiences. All those things will be true. And so, the brand and mission of family entertainment will stay the same, but I think you'll see us in a lot more places and kind of our brand is going to come to life in a lot of new ways. 

Chris Powers: You might say, can't tell you, you'll just have to wait and find out. Is there something that you're already seeing the future in that the average Joe like me has no idea to say this might be a way people are consuming content five years from now that you haven't thought of yet?

Andrew Yaffe: I wish I- if I knew the answer, I'd probably be an investor rather than an operator. I don't- It's honestly not something I concerned myself too much with. Like, from a content perspective, it really- one of the beauties of digital content is it's changing on a daily basis. It's not... I'm sure it's going to look very different five years from now, but what we're producing six months from now is going to look very different than what we're producing today. And what happens over the next six months is going to inform that. And so, in many of the- some of the products or experiences that take years to build, we're looking long term. But from a content perspective, we don't have the luxury. It's really what do we need to be developing today or tomorrow that our audience is going to want to see your experience. 

Chris Powers: All right, Andrew, thanks for joining me today. This was awesome. 

Andrew Yaffe: Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. 

Chris Powers: Appreciate it. Thank you, buddy.