#336 - Bill Cawley - CEO @ Cawley Partners

Chris Powers: I grew up in the DFW real estate industry and was your fan. You're a legend around these parts, but I don't want to start the conversation in real estate. I want to start the discussion on the road in Colorado we discussed at lunch today, which was a big life-changing moment for you.

Bill Cawley: Yeah. It changed my life forever because it got me into a personal relationship with Christ, but it's probably the best thing ever to happen to me. It's weird to say that a bad accident was good, but so much good has come out of it. 

Chris Powers: okay. So what happened? 

Bill Cawley: So I was a bachelor and raised a Catholic.

Young came to Dallas at 28, had an alcohol problem, and got sober. I didn't go to rehab, but I went to AA meetings, and I would go I'd go to AA at noon, and I go there at five, and I'd stay there from five o'clock until they closed because I was afraid I wasn't there, I drink and get sober. Then, I started working on my life, and my business took off. I was on a motorcycle trip with a bunch of buddies.

So my life was good. I'm sober. I'm living in the world, though. I'm building my business, and it was going well. And I was. In Aspen for the 4th of July weekend, it was, uh, and on a Friday night, July 5th, it was 1997, we were driving to Telluride, and I was on a motorcycle, and I tried to pass a guy in a pickup truck, and I can close my eyes right now and see him.

He looked at me with the window down and his arm on the window. And as I tried to pass him, he sped up, smiling at me. It's a two-lane road. And so I said, okay, this guy's crazy. I'm going to, I'm going to slow down and get behind him and then figure out a way around them. And as I started slowing down, he slowed down.

So he was leaving me out on the passing lane. I had the bike in a higher gear, so it didn't have a lot of peps, so I dropped it into a lower gear and gunned it and got around him, and as I was getting around him, there was a car coming, and there was a sharp turn. And that wasn't crazy strong, but it was pretty intense.

And I just got around him and got into the other lane, and I couldn't make the turn. It was either getting hit by that car or trying to make the turn. And I went off the road, and it was right after Christopher Reeves, Superman was paralyzed, and I just kept. They talked about how he went head-first into the ground.

And even today, I can remember being in the air on the motorcycle, going, I need to jump off this bike. Which didn't make a lot of sense, but I said, okay, I'm going to push off. And I pushed off, and then I tried to wrap my arms around my chest to protect myself. And I'd fall and roll.

And if you're in tech, if you've been in Colorado, there's a lot of rocks, a lot of it's choppy area. And the impact was incredible. I'd never gone through anything like that. I was laying in the ditch, and my arms from my wrist to my elbow, the most significant piece of bone was one inch. So, it was like a puzzle piece.

And so they didn't function well. My elbow was pushed out of the skin, and I had no pain. It was just all warm. Everything felt hot. And I thought I was waiting for the blood to come out of my mouth, like on the Westerns and die. Um, and so for the first time in my life, first time in 15 years, I was praying.

And because I'm a real estate guy, I was trying to make a deal because I was lying there going. I had no idea where I was going. I've been a good guy but didn't know if I'd done enough to get to heaven. And so I started praying for the first time in years, and I just said, God, let me live. I was estranged from my kids because of my alcoholism.

I was sober, but they had not forgiven me, and I had not gone back to work on those relationships. And I had a lot of unfinished business. I was lying there thinking. If this is my last breath, what is my legacy, not my legacy to people? What have I done? And I was estranged from my two kids.

There were just a lot of things, the girls, the type of girls I was dating, it just would not have been the way I wanted to go out, and all those things just started rushing through my head, and I was praying, and I said, Lord, I don't think I could probably call them Lord. Then it was probably God.

Just let me live, and I'll change it up. And so I was there. 20-25 minutes. And I go, well, I won't talk. So, I started thinking about what I needed to do. And the pain started coming because the shock wore off. And now I'm thinking I'm going to live. And so I had friends that came when I was riding bikes with them. They came back looking for me, but they didn't see me. And I couldn't yell because I had a full face mask or helmet on, and my arms didn't work. So I crawled up the side of the hill, and it wasn't deep, you know, but I crawled up the side of the mountain and just rolled over on the road shoulder, and immediately a car pulled over.

And it was a couple from Louisville, Texas, on vacation. It was a husband, a wife, and two kids. And they stopped a small world, Louisville, Texas. And they just sat with me, and they called the police, and then the cops came, and then we called an ambulance. We had to wait over two hours for an ambulance because it was the 4th of July weekend, and you're in Colorado.

Nobody's working. And the funny part of that story, I told you at lunches, is that the couple that waited for me waited until the police came. Then they left, and the husband, they wrote their phone number down, and I lost it when through all the surgeries and stuff because I was in Gunnison in the hospital and the guy came over to me and he said, I got to tell you what I was talking to my wife about right before we pulled over to save you.

And I go, what, what? He goes, I was trying to talk her into letting me buy a motorcycle. I said that's off the table. I sat there. I put me in an ambulance. I went to Gunnison. I had surgery. The doctor said I got good news and bad news. He said the bad news is I've never seen anybody broken up like your arms.

And he said, but I see skiing accidents all the time. So, I bet you're in the right spot to get it fixed. And I was so euphoric that I was alive. The first thing I wanted was pain meds. So when I got pain meds, that was awesome. The cop wouldn't even give me Tylenol. I'm going, Tylenol. But I went through surgery, and I came out, and I'm going to tell you one incredible story.

So I wake up, I'm sitting in bed, I've got me, I'm propped up in bed, a hospital bed and both of my arms are propped up on pillows, and they're wrapped in white gauze, and there's blood oozing out, and I've got metal rods from here to here in each elbow, and it's, they're just holding my hands cause the bone wasn't enough.

They had to hold it out with the rod to grow together. Oh yeah. And this nurse comes in; he's a male nurse. His name was Paul. What I didn't know when he walked in was that he had been a detective in New York. He'd been shot twice. The second time he got shot, he said, I'm out of here. He goes to nursing school and ends up in Gunnison, Colorado.

He comes in, looks at me, and says, you are a mess, but you'll have to figure this out. And he wheels that table over and puts a bowl of Cheerios in front of me. And my left elbow was broken. So he, in my right elbow, my left hand, put a piece of rubber between my fist and stuck a spoon in it, and he gave me Cheerios, and he said, you got to figure out how to eat.

So I started trying to eat, and I was spilling Cheerios everywhere, and I started crying because I started realizing that this was not going to be a quick recovery. So he left me there, came back in, looked at me, and saw I had teared up, and I've got Cheerios everywhere. And he says I will take you outside and give you some sun.

I'm going, I'm in this bed stacked up, and he takes all the pillows off, picks me up, puts me in a wheelchair, gets my arms situated, wheels me outside and leaves me under a tree. He said I'll be back in about an hour. And right across the parking lot is where people who use wheelchairs would pull up for therapy.

So I'm watching a guy get out of the driver's seat. Get a lift to bring his wheelchair up, slide down and get in his chair, close his car, van, or whatever it was. And I watched that for an hour, and his message was, Hey buddy, you're lucky you're walking, you're going to walk, and you're going to be okay. Quit pounding. And he came, and when he got me back, I said, Paul, I ended up, we got close. I said I called him. Pauly said, Pauly, I am in. I said, no more complaining from this guy; whatever you tell me to do, I will do. And thank you for leaving me out there. And so, mostly, it was a good ride.

And then, as I got better, I wanted to honour my deal with God. So I went back to the church I had been going to. And I didn't feel like I was connected there. I was there, but I was distracted. And the cool thing is God kept putting people in my life who knew me and talked to me about Jesus before, but I didn't. I wasn't interested in this. I'm curious.

So I bought a house. I was a bachelor and bought it before leaving on the trip. I'm in the hospital recovering. And my assistant says, what do you want to do about the pool? I said, just whoever did it for the last guy, have him do it. So I'm at home. So what they would do is because you break your arms badly, they grow back too long, and you can't supinate.

So we'd have to wait for him to be healed, and then they go in and break my wrists and shave the bones down. So, like, you would get better, and then you'd know you had to go back in for another surgery. It's like, congrats. We're going to. And, and the pain, you know, it was okay, but it was like, Oh my God, you know, you start to feel good, and you're going back in, and they break, they break both arms.

So I am, they, I had nurses living with me and my son, and they would wheel me out to the pool deck to get sun. And again, My arms are up in the air with rods on. I can't do anything. They could have put me in traffic. I'm not going anywhere. And this pool guy comes up, and he's a big burly guy, and I'm sitting there, and he goes, you know, we asked what happened, and I told him, and I find out he was a music minister at a Christian church in Carrollton, Texas.

And I told him about my journey and that I was trying to figure it out. And so he started coming every Saturday. And the first Saturday after that conversation, he brought me a Walkman and a cassette, and he would just put it on my head, push the button, and clean the pool. And then, after he had finished cleaning the pool, we talked about it. And the first time, I wanted to know if I was interested. And then I started looking forward to him coming. Then, I had a couple of other friends coming over and witnessing John Maisel from East West ministry take me under his wing. But long story short. July 5th of 97, March 22nd, on my pool deck, I accepted Christ, and it was an immediate life changer for me.

It was euphoric. I was always afraid that people would figure me out because I never really liked who I was. I tried to be good, but I didn't love me. I would try to portray who I was, but I wasn't really that guy, and deep down, I knew. And so, for the first time, the day I accepted Christ, it was like floating, and it would just turn on a dime for me.

I used to have a hair trigger on. You know, I get upset. I would stuff, stuff, stuff, then get bitter. And it just was a complete change. Then, I just went through my life and started to change everything. And it was just a process where God changed my heart. I got into Bible studies, and I just started surrounding myself. I went looking for a church, and I went to this pool guys, the pool cleaners, and they would speak in tongues, and it was Pretty wild. But I didn't let any of that bother me. I was just focused on the preacher. The preacher was great, but I eventually changed everything up. I was dating and said, okay, this is probably not going to be my wife, so I need to change all that up.

So, I prayed to God, I said, God, I'm going to go looking for my wife, bring me a wife. I will honour you in my dating. And 90 days after I said that prayer and I said it in earnest, I met my wife on a blind date. And. We had our first date; we didn't have another one for a month, but then, the second date, I sat there, we had our dinner, and who says I'm 47, and I'm sitting there saying, I want, you know, I want to honour you in our dating.

If I'm looking for a wife, this is like she has yet to have the first sip of her margarita. And I said, but this is where I'm at in my life. I said, I'm so grateful to be alive, and I've had this faith conversion, and this is who I am. And if, if this scares you, you're, you should be with me because this is the road I'm on.

And my wife, the sweetest, best person I know on earth, just looked at me going, where did this guy come from? And from that day on, we were connected, and we, I proposed in October, and we were married in November, and we honoured the Lord, you know, all the way through it. Instead of jumping in the sack, we were getting to know each other.

I will say I've never; I have the most security in my marriage than anybody I know; I know I'm locked in for life. And I think it's because of God's blessing us. That might've been more than you wanted to hear.

Chris Powers: No, that was exactly how I hoped we would start. One thing you said in there, uh, there's a few things, but I wrote down one, which was it, there was a, let's call it a pile of bad relationships that had stacked up the crash. And for many people, we tend to tell ourselves a story that those relationships are tarnished forever, or we have too much pride to fix them, or we don't even know how to fix them, right? We may want to fix them, but we need to know.

And I know I've had that experience in certain stages of my life where I've had burned bridges, sometimes unknowingly. Can you speak briefly about how you return to the pile of bodies you've stacked up and start bringing everybody back to life? 

Bill Cawley: So, in Getting Sober, AA teaches you that you have to make a list of all the people that you've offended, whether they know it or not, like if you stole from them or You have to make a list.

You have to clear all the debris out of your mind to go anywhere. And you've made personal amends. If I owe you money, I got to go to you and tell you I realized I owe you. And if I can't pay you, if I'm supposed to spend a hundred bucks, I got to pay you five dollars a week, whatever it is, I can pay you, but I have to make amends. I have to make it right. And it may not. Now it's your choice whether you forgive me. Right. So what they do is to teach you to make amends. So, I wanted to walk into a room, and if I offended you, at least you know I've addressed it. You may choose not to forgive me, but I can look you in the eye and know I've dealt with it.

And then, if you want to be mad at me like my ex-wife was mad at me for 20 years, she forgave me, and it was a big day. I still get choked up thinking about that one. But so through AA, I felt that. They would see the change in my life, and my kids would forgive or come to me because I sought them.

And I realized that The pain was too deep. So, and through my wife, Keely, she helped me because she said, Bill, you have to fix this. Like my daughter would come and be in my presence, but you could tell she loathes me, and I would try to get along with her, but I didn't address it. And we were visiting; I was introducing my about-to-be wife to my daughter, Kelly, Who is now. We're so tight, and Kelly shows up, and she's rude and doesn't want anything to do with me. And Keely goes, you got to fix this. So we're staying at the Drake Hotel in Chicago. So, she said, you call her, get her in a room, and sit until you figure this out.

I said okay, so I called Kelly in the morning and said, Honey, I'm coming down and talking to you. And she goes, no, I don't want to. So I go back to Keely. It was my wife. I got a Kelly and a Keely and a Kaylee, but so I go to Keely, and I go, Keely, she didn't want to do it. She could get back in there and call her. You're going down there. So I go down there, and we get in a room. And it's just a cry fest, and the deal I made with her in that room that day was I lived in Dallas. She lived in Illinois. I said I'll go to counselling with you every week. You pick the counsellor, and I'll be there. So, for 18 months, I would fly to O'Hare, drive two hours, and have dinner with her.

Go to counselling, get up in the morning, have breakfast, drive back to O'Hare, and return to Dallas. And in the beginning, it wasn't every week but every other week. And I did that for a year and a half, and it was about showing up, and I just kept going. And I got to tell you, the counsellor should be disbarred.

She was horrible, but I was just in there showing up, you know, and one day, I swear to you, one day, I'm in there. And we're done with counselling. And my daughter Kelly looks at me. She goes, Dad, you don't have to do this anymore.

She had forgiven me. There's a lot of guilt in life for the mistakes you make. And it feels good when you're forgiven. So, that relationship today is solid. She works with me. She moved. She's just moved her family from Illinois. My grandkids and everybody a year ago, and she's in our industrial group, and we're close. We talk so closely, and I have an adult son, Chris, who lives in Tampa. I did the same thing with him, but it wasn't counselling.

It was just going and seeing him and talking to him, and he forgave me, and we have a perfect relationship. Chris is struggling with alcohol. He had been sober for seven years, and he just started drinking again. And so we're all dealing with that, but I think people want to know you care, and I think it's about showing them, and I think it's all in different ways.

My daughter didn't believe I was there, and I think it was just showing up. It was not easy to get in the car and drive and do that, but it was worth it—some of the best time you've ever spent. And, like the relationship we have, I used to think when I was drinking if anybody would ever respect me.

Or believe what I say because when you drink a lot, you lie because you're always hiding the ball, right? Cause you get messes, and my kids respect me, and they love me, and we're close, and that's good. That's good. It's the best. 

Chris Powers: What? It's what you said about legacy, like how you think and don't care about that.

Some people think of their legacy as I'm going to die, and people are going to feel about me forever, and everybody's going to think about me and everything I did. Please share a bit about how you think about legacy. 

Bill Cawley: Well, we're all vapour, right? My legacy is having the world be better after I'm gone.

And it's about relationships. It's about reputation to me and relationships or everything and experiences like people I know that are dying. All they do is they don't talk about how much money got done about the people they love, the places and the experiences they've had with their friends.

And that's what life is, right? And so for any of us to think, I've built this giant real estate career and done all this stuff. They're going to forget you two weeks after you're gone. You're everything you own that the kids don't want to go on a garage sale. And you know, every once in a while, somebody might bring you up, Hey, you remember when Collie did this or that, but pretty much we're vapour.

And we need to realize that it's more about what we're doing than a legacy. Your legacy is how you live your life in the lives you've touched. And for me, it's all about connecting people. And with sincerity.

Chris Powers: let's talk about one more thing. And then we'll get into real estate.

I want to talk about your recent trip to Cuba because as we're talking about our faith and what it's like to follow Jesus in America, I picked up on a few things, like serving people in a third-world country. 

Bill Cawley: Well, one of the people who took me under my wing when I was a new Christian seeking Jesus was John Maisel at Beast West Ministries.

I was introduced to him. It is the modern-day Paul, this guy. If you saw his Bible, it's powder. This guy is just an unbelievable man. And he would come every week and disciple me and teach me. And he loved on me and put other people in my life. And so I got to know him, and east-west ministries plant churches nationwide.

And it's a faith-based Christian organization that. It's spreading the word of Jesus, right? It's making salvation available to people all over the world. So, I started financially backing him and supporting them. And then, right after I got married, I told my wife Keely I wanted to go to Cuba.

And she says, well, if you're going, I'm going. So we went together, and we went, it's door-to-door evangelism. So you get a church member, they've got these churches planted everywhere. You get a church member, and he's maybe got a brother or sister or a neighbour that he wants to know the Lord and come to church.

I have an interpreter who speaks Spanish and English. And we go out and call on them. We go right into their house and share the gospel. And so I did that with Keely many years ago, 20 years ago. And then I did it with my son Hunter four years ago when he was 16. And I just got back; I was there last week, and you can't believe the poverty but can't believe the happiness.

They have nothing, and they're happy. You know, we all seek money and stuff. And it's just not about the things you see somebody living in a hundred by hundred square foot block home, and five people are living in it all sleeping in one bed, and they're happy, and they just are so grateful to have what they have.

They have nothing. And quick, to tell you how bad it's gotten there. Four years ago, the government said the average salary or income per person was 30 dollars a month, and the government gave them two dozen eggs, two chickens, a bag of rice and a bag of beans. So we were there last week. It's now four eggs, no chickens, a bag of rice, a bag of beans, and the monthly income is 7$, and to get a visa to leave. Why don't they go? It is 800. So you have no chance. They can only scrape the money together if somebody gives it to them. And then our interpreters were making $25 a day. And because they're interpreting for us, which is a ton of money for them. And both of my interpreters are saving money to get a visa to get out.

And 400,000 people left Cuba last year. But the experience was one with my son. Witnessing him in service was incredible. So awesome. And you know, at a young age, he's a young man, but he's got a great heart, and I'm proud of him. And then I was with 11 others. Men that I respect. Some I knew, some I didn't.

All are very successful in business, humble, and focused on being in service as far as sharing their faith and helping people in any way they can. I don't think you can out-give God. I'm a big believer in giving money, but giving your time is the number one thing because you get more out of it than you'll ever give.

And I will tell you, I was glad to get home, but it was an unbelievable experience. 

Chris Powers: What's the common thread? What do people over there pray for? What do they want? 

Bill Cawley: They want a better life. They want, like I asked, do you have elections? Yes, but they know it's not real.

They're all beaten down; they think this is their life's lot. All of them pray to get out. They're all looking for a way to get out. Yep. And none of them have it. And I mean, he could overthrow Cuba with a pitchfork and a couple of shotguns if we went down there.

I do. I kept telling this group I was with. I said, guys, we need to return with a barge and save them because you want to save them all. Right. And you talk to people like the older people, they're just very worn down because they saw the good days, right? They saw democracy, and now they see.

Socialism and communism and communism, and it doesn't work. And I mean, they're just milking them. It's terrible.

Chris Powers: All right. Let's talk about real estate. You know, a thing or two about it. How did you even get in the business? 

Bill Cawley: So my dad was in real estate. My dad was, and I respected my dad. I looked up to him big time.

From a very young age, We were poor. And my dad, when I was three years old or four or five years old, I was old enough to remember he had been working in a car dealership, and it went broke. And so we went to real estate school and lived in a farmhouse rent-free from our wealthy relatives.

My dad got into the real estate business, and I watched him get into it. He was in a town of 8,000 people. So, when we were six and seven years old, somebody wanted to be a cop, and somebody was a cowboy; I was a real estate guy. So I never knew what it meant, but I always knew that was all I would do.

Then, one was because I respected my dad, and two, I just wanted to do it. And so, as I grew up, I got to college and returned home and realized I was in a tiny town with the deal sizes too small. And my dad would sell a house or lease a storefront and do a little small, build a suit for 8,000 square feet.

He was very well known and well thought of in the city. I respected how my dad was appreciated. I admired him, but I realized early on when I was there after college that I needed to play more prominently, and I didn't know how to. So, I started driving to Chicago when fast food was rolling out.

So this is in the eighties. Well, yeah, eighties, nineties. It's when fast food, like when McDonald's was expanding and Burger King and all of them, They're everywhere now, but they were, so I would go up and look for pad sites and try to tie them up.

I had no money but tied up two acres, sold one-off, and had one. And I started figuring out the real estate business and would go back. To LaSalle, where I'm from, and I just realized, I said, I got to figure out another way. My alcoholism was intense at that point, and I had a buddy who was buying four-wheel drive pickup trucks, and he went to Dallas.

He was buying them up there and selling them here. And I came with him and just saw Dallas. It was in the early eighties, and they were building buildings everywhere. It's right before everything collapsed right before that. And I said, okay, this is where I belong. And I returned to my dad and said, Hey, Dan, I'm going to try Texas. And he said I don't want you to go. I always thought you would take this company over, but go, you can always come home. And I loaded up my stereo, and I had 300 bucks, and I came to Dallas and knew no one. I followed a girl. I met a girl. I got married young and had a divorce, and I was still drinking heavily.

Eighteen months after I got to Dallas, I got sober. And then, I was broke. So, I took a bunch of jobs. I had to take it because I needed the money. So it was like watching your house burn down, and you don't have a hose. I just knew I was burning time, and it was driving me crazy. And I thought I had a chance here and an opportunity there, and I was working for a developer that got into the SNL business. And he said to me we were building office condos on the tow way. Office condos don't recommend it. But he got in, he bought, it was Don Dixon. He bought Vernon's savings and started it. And he said you can have whatever you want. I'm selling this real estate to another company. They took me, and I could confirm them to leases. And I converted him to a lease. And I made a little bit of money. And I said I'm going to leave. And I went and got a business card printed. And I worked; I remember saving money to buy my fax machine. And I worked out of my off my extra bedroom at home.

And I just started; I decided to be a tenant rep broker because I didn't need any money. And I always thought office buildings were cool. And I said I will figure out what makes it all work. And then I'm going to be a developer who knew, you know, a little bit of hysterical thought, but I thought you never knew.

And so that's what I did. And I ran out of money, and I would go to the mailbox, and it was in the days when they would send you a credit card. And I would be like two months late on my mortgage payment and a couple of months late on my car payment, and a credit card would show up, and I go, okay. And I'd use the credit card, and I keep going because I just said I will do this.

I'm going to do it no matter what. I'm going to keep going. I started making some money, but it wasn't much. And what I did was my first business idea was the RTC was kicking everybody out of these buildings because people would take. In 20,000 feet, they'd get five years of free rent, and you have to pay rent in five years.

I paid rent, but the rent was incredible for two years of free rent. It was a 10-year lease with two years, and when the two years came up, they needed 5,000 feet. They're in 20, and the whole thing blew up, correct? So all these people were getting evicted, and I thought, well, that guy's in 20, but he needs five.

So I started calling on them and said, listen, I know you got evicted, but I can find your space, and they would hire me, and I would go to the other landlords, and I said, this guy needs five. I know he's been evicted, and I agreed to take my fee when they get the rent. So instead of getting the four and a half per cent, I took six, and I met my God, I found a business, and I had all these people, and I was starting to make money, and then I had people wanting to work for me, and then I was in the business.

And the first good idea I had was going to these guys that were getting evicted, and I started building up this cash flow and decided, okay, I want to get in the tenant rep business because I was starting to figure it out. And I brokered a deal to the Bass family in the middle of it. I was beginning, and it was Robert M Bass's land company.

And they said, do you want to come work here? And I went, wow, there was Rainwater and Bonderman and all these brilliant people. And I said, yeah, Yes. So all I had was a business card and a fax machine. So I said, I said, okay. And I shut it down and went. I came over, and I drove to Fort Worth every day. I worked with them, and American Express gave us 200 million to buy real estate during the RTC collapse.

And I was just a broker. But I got to spend a little bit of time with rainwater, and he was like the Pied Piper and used to say when they're buying, we should be selling. And when they're scared, we ought to be buying. And where we're at today, it's time to buy. Many people are waiting; it's an excellent time to buy.

But I did that for three years, forming my view of investing. I'm a very contrarian investor. I always look for value. I'm not; I like to pay for anything. I want to buy pants on sale to purchase real estate. Then, I went back and built my business to where I got into the multi-market tenor rep business.

And I did that by hiring four attractive, intelligent girls that would go out and open doors. And we built an excellent business and then started tracking all the information. And then I went to institutional money and said, Hey, I'm in Silicon Valley. I'm doing five leases downtown. There were three vacant buildings.

Now, there are two. Pretty soon. There's not going to be any. We should buy this building. Then I started getting traction with that, and we began buying buildings. And I got into the investment business, and then I loved that. And then when I had to, when I was going to do tenant rep business, I was pretty good at it.

But when I was going to do it, I didn't want to do it. Like I'd be putting the tie on in the morning, and I'd lose all my energy. So that told me I had to do something. So, in 07, I sold my business, CB. I could have sold the CB or one of the big brokerage companies, but they wanted me. I sold it to my employees for nothing but for my freedom, and I became an investor developer then. 

Chris Powers: So, Oh, seven. Okay. 

Bill Cawley: Oh, seven is when I left the service business. 

Chris Powers: Let's go real quick back to the collapse. So you arrive in Dallas, Dallas is humming. It's the land of opportunity. I'm assuming Mr. Crow Trammel Crow is building everything you could see.

How quickly did it go from? It is excellent to just disaster

Bill Cawley: like overnight was crazy. Yeah. 

Chris Powers: And what do you mean they changed your mind at the time? You didn't have a lot of ownership in anything, so it's not like it would kill you from that perspective. 

Bill Cawley: So I was a broker, trying to get 5 per cent or backend pieces for bringing deals to people.

Yeah. Everybody was signing notes, and everything was a tax-driven investment. So it was tax-based stuff. They're writing things off in five years, whatever it was. But so I had made relationships where I brokered, got pieces of deals, and signed notes. Oh wow. I didn't have anything, so it wasn't a big deal, and the guy I was signing a note with had 50 million in that worth. They all went broke, and I ended up standing there. I owed 70 million, and I'm still living on credit cards. I negotiated it down to three and a half million and paid him. And so for the next. 15 years. I spent at the three and a half million bucks. I want to tell you one story.

Chris Powers: Let's go. 

Bill Cawley: So I'm six months late on my car payment. The bankers on the first floor of the building that I'm officing and I had, I had moved my office up into a building in the banker says, I'm walking through the lobby, he's giving me this, Hey, come on in here. So I go in there. I bought, I always stood up and went in, and he says, " Bill, you're six months late.

You got to give me the car. And I said, now the alcoholics anonymous, you got to make amends. Right? And I looked at him, I said, please don't take the car because I got to take the car. I said, okay if I give you the car, would you give me 90 days? He says that the car's not worth it. Seven thousand is worth a dollar, and I go.

Give me 90 days, he said. Okay, well, so he took my car, parked in the garage, and I went and rented a car. And I told people I was having engine trouble, and my car sat there, and I went out, and I just started, you know, putting deals together, and I scraped the 7,000 together. Now I still owe three and a half million, and I walked in and paid him for it, and he looked at me and said, I can't believe you did this. But it was about, I had to, you know, I had to keep moving forward. I had to do the right thing. And so I paid him, and I drove that car for effort. What was it? It was like a black Mercedes, like a giant meathead. I made one deal and bought a Mercedes, but I think I drove that car for 20 years, and it had the sticker; please, Lord, give me one more chance.

I promise not to piss it away was the word on there, but yeah. So, I made many mistakes, but it formed and moulded you, right? So, I don't sign notes anymore. And whether you mark a note or not, you have to pay them, but it gives you a little more leverage for them to be more excellent to you.

More pliable. 

Chris Powers: Will you describe what the tollway is? You're the king of the tollway. I mean, the tollway and you are synonymous. What did the tollway look like? When you first saw it, because you've gotten to see it over the last, are you even shocked? It's now up in Oklahoma. 

Bill Cawley: It's wild. So when I was there, there was a bunch of car dealerships on the tollway, so there would maybe one or two office buildings and the rest of it was like bad sites, retail strips, Henry Butts, the Oldsmobile dealership, RTC hits, all that stuff goes bust.

A German group bought Henry Butts. It was like, it was 10 acres on the tollway. De Ewing's family owned a dealership there. Every, all the dealerships were moving north. They were moving to Frisco and Plano, and you'll love the story, but nobody wanted office land. And I thought I knew the tenants.

I knew the tenants, and I knew what was going on with the tenants. So, there was a site on Keller Springs in the tollway. And Bob Folsom, the ex-mayor of Dallas, owned it. And I called Denny Holman, his right-hand man, and said, Mr. Holman, I'd like to see you. And so I see him and want to build an office building on your land.

He starts laughing, and he goes, I haven't had anybody talk to me about building an office building in a while. Why do you think? And I said, here's what I did. I'm a tenant rep broker. I don't have any money. I can get an architect to do some work and lease this building if you give me the time.

And he says, well, how much time do you want? I said, I want 90 days, and I'll give you earnest money, but the check could be better. He starts laughing, and he goes, the check's not good. I said, no, it's not any good. I said, but I'll give you the check. And he goes, well. Is it, you know, not any good? Let me give you the check, hold it and give me 90 days, and I'll come back and report how I've done.

So, I went to an architectural firm where I'd been a tenant rep. He designed two buildings on the site. I had a site plan and a rendering. I knew Sun Microsystems was in an old building on Preston Road, and they would go out and look. They had 175,000 square feet.

So I called; I designed this building efficient plates because you learn that through tenant rep, and I built this excellent design. It was a picture. It's nothing. I went and called Sun Microsystems, and they had a broker and connected me to the broker. And I got traction from them, and this was not an efficient market like today.

So I start negotiating, and then I go, Oh my God, I got to figure out what this costs so I can figure out what it's and what the rent should be. So I went and found, I had a, I hired a guy, he became my partner and helped me get a budget. We put a budget together, and we had a rental rate. Then, my time expired on the land.

So I went back to Folsom, and I went, looked, and showed him the letters of intent going back and forth. And I showed him the budgets, and he goes, keep going, I'll give you another 90 days. And so, believe it or not, I got sun microsystems into a signed letter of intent for 175,000 square feet. Not one time, that whole process.

I went to Car America, Bill Vander Stratton, now the chief. And he was my partner. He put the money up. Not once in that whole process anybody asked me if I'd ever built a building. I kept waiting. For example, I meet with a lender, and I'm going, okay, they will ask.

They never did. And it's because I delivered the tenant. And it happened, and it built, we built it. It's there today. I just tried to buy it. I'm proud of it. It's a timeless building. And then that started me on the tollway. At the same time, I went down to the Germans who bought the car dealership.

And there were rumours that JPMorgan Chase was coming to Dallas from New York. I went and met with them, and I said, I just did this up here. I can do this here. And they went, I showed them all the paperwork, and they said, okay. So Steve Platt was my development partner; he was the meat because he could give them details.

So I'm starting to meet with the Germans. I got a building design from HKS. I went to HKS, and they spent the work. It was great. Get a site plan and a floor plan. The Germans in the middle of it decided to build its back. And I'm going, Oh my God, we're going to make two buildings, and I don't have a tenant.

So they start building this building, you're going to love this. So JP Morgan shows up, and they're all, they're all in a bus with no name tags or anything, and they come in, and our buildings now up, it's up, and it had been sitting there for like six months with no leasing. JP Morgan came in, and they walked the building. We had the ceiling heights, the fish, and the plate.

We went up on parking ratio because parking was starting to be a big mover. And so we made some excellent decisions there. So we had one 350,000-foot building specs and then space for two more. You're going to love this. So these guys show up; we know who they are, but they don't know. We know who they are.

We gave them cowboy hats and hard hats, and off we went. And two weeks later, Starbucks was representing them. We start trading paper on the first building, and they come to us, and they go. Can you build two more? Uh, sure. And so they signed a lease for 750,000 square feet. I'm on a panel in Dallas for the Dallas Business Journal getting peppered.

I have the letter of intent in my coat pocket, and I'm getting peppered by people thinking, saying what an idiot I am to have built that building spec on the tollway. Because it's just sitting there, and I was sitting there, and I was like, you know, I was just like thinking, Oh yeah. And I said, I have a feeling it will lease, and I have faith that it will hire.

And like two weeks later, we announced it, and it catapulted me then. Then it wasn't about, can you do it? I stayed there because the towway is the spine of Dallas, and we started downtown uptown's hot Preston centres, the next safe place in Dallas. Then, it jumped the legacy. And mid tow away where I've been playing is where everybody's going to come back to because they're going to realize that it's centre and like Preston centre barrier shanty.

People are milking those buildings, but they're solid Uptown because of barriers. It's a layup legacy up there; up north, it's soft. And, the tow way, I'm about to try to build a building there right now, and if I do, I've got it. And I have two tenants. I have an oil company that was 120 00 feet; they're reaching 80 and want the amenities.

They want their space differently. They want the amenity package. They want more of a hospitality feel. The office has changed forever. It will not be as bad as it is, but it's changed forever. And the stuff that could be better done. It will be something else, like pickleball courts, but it won't be an office.

Chris Powers: What does poorly done mean to you besides being outdated?

Bill Cawley: Not amenitized, not walkable location. They used to stick an office building up on the corner and think people would come. Those days are over. Now, if you've got to be building on the tollway, and it's well located and not walkable, it will function.

It's going to function at. It will be challenged more than an A-type building because we're not getting any pushback on rents. I own eight or nine buildings now, many of which are B, B pluses. They're all full. They're 96 per cent leased. We're not giving concessions on rent. If there's one concession, it's TI.

And for the office to survive. We have to figure that out. We have to stop spending all that money. 

Chris Powers: I was going to say the TI is getting slightly out of control. 

Bill Cawley: More than a little, like I was looking at a price on a building I'm building in Plano; it's a new, 159 square feet.

And it's for a services company; it's not a wild finish-up. It's nuts. 

Chris Powers: How long a lease would that be? 10 years? 

Bill Cawley: 12. 

Chris Powers: Didn't you go in? I mean, I was Dean Adler on the podcast, and he was saying, you know, in every other asset class, you put TI below the, you know, I line item, but in office, you do it, and it's all your cat.

Your cash is just constantly going back in the building. 

Bill Cawley: Well, and the problem is, is you get a tenant in there for ten years, and their lease is up, and then they move, and then you've got to spend ten demos in it and then another. You know, 30, like I'm looking at a building on the tow way I built, sold, bought back, released, sold, and I'm about to repurchase it.

I'm trying to, and they made a mistake. It's a B building. It's in a, it's well located. It's got excellent visibility, but they demoed all the Second-generation space. So it's a building that will get 22 to 23 plus electric rent and cost 110 bucks. It doesn't make sense. And the lender that owns it, I said, guys, you're toast.

Chris Powers: So what do you think happens there? Do you think you keep dancing with them until the lender finally gives in?

Bill Cawley: either the lender will lease it up and lose more money, or they will sell it for what it's worth, which, you know. They probably had 30 million in debt, and it's worth eight.

Chris Powers: Some, like offices, will always be different again. Do you think that COVID just accelerated a trend, or do you believe that COVID had never happened? 

Bill Cawley: I think if COVID had never happened. It wouldn't be to this degree; productivity's not as good, and productivity's down across our nation.

Oh, for sure. We're soft. Yeah. Covid has taught everybody that they get free money, and it's a mess. I think. Yeah. Our productivity is off by 60%. I read an article in the Wall Street Journal about eight months ago, and if you look at it like the government. Washington, DC, still needs to bring people back to work. I know. I have a friend who has a disability, and he is trying to get his disability renewed. He's been doing it for three years. Nobody responds. Nobody's at the office. Nobody cares. We're paying them to watch Netflix. And I don't know if you noticed, but this week, a lot of people are saying back to work, back to work.

And one of the things why the office is changing is it's about the commute. Nobody wants to be in the car for 15 to 20 minutes. So the guy living in Prosper driving downtown is over. That's why the middle is going to be good for Dallas. So it's about that and a better experience so that when your employees come to your office, they never have to leave.

They can leave if they want, but there's food, everything they need, and spaces to gather and feel comfortable there. I don't get the sleeping rooms, the foosball, or the, but that's fine if they want. Cause like I'm a big believer and go to work, work hard and go home.

Because I want my employees to be with their kids, I want them to be at the soccer game. I want them to go to the parent-teacher conference. They need to do all that stuff. I didn't do any of it. Yeah, no, I did it on my second batch. I've been so much better when you're older; you're smarter.

But, you want to build amenities in an environment where they want to stay, and they can be more productive and feel loved that you care. Employees need to know you care about them. 

Chris Powers: I agree with the foosball and the safe spaces. 

Bill Cawley: We built a pickleball court where I've made bocce ball courts.

I've built putting greens. We put charcoal grills out, and I and you know what I do? I sit. I go into my building, I get a cup of coffee, and I get my laptop, and I go into the conference centre, and I watch people coming in the morning, and I'll sit there and watch them and all the stuff we built; what are they using?

And then, at lunch, I do the same thing, and at night, I do the same thing. 

Chris Powers: And what do they use? About 20%. 

Bill Cawley: Yeah. But what they're using, they're loving. So I'm going to lean into that, and I'm going to stop doing all this other stuff, and it's gathering areas. It's anything that makes their life like good food.

Like we're, we're, we're subsidizing food. Food's important. Food is the most important one. 

Chris Powers: So you're putting in a restaurant or something and offering.

Bill Cawley: Free rent, paying for it, subsidizing it and giving them great food at a cheap price. It's cheap. It's not cheap, but it keeps it whole, and you pass it through.

It's an operating expense. I have 120 a 000-foot building on the tow way I office in. It's got a total gym and a full restaurant. We spent a million bucks building a restaurant out. It's five stars on Yelp. People wait in line to enter because we took a caterer and put her in business.

Chris Powers: Okay. What is the capital market world telling you? It's tough. Yeah. And is anybody building an office right now? If it still needs to be permitted and funded, it is everything, not just DFW but your peers across the country.

Bill Cawley: All the guys that beat or did it during COVID that hit COVID got the reasonable interest rates will win.

Cause you know, all the stuff that's coming up in Uptown, but you know, a lot of the guys up North that built, four or five large buildings is going up. The leasing could be better. It's not. And all the big tenants are on the sidelines. Corporate America is waiting to see what's going to happen.

Yeah. But for local entrepreneurs like you and me, it's business as usual. They're making decisions. So I decided we sold everything we could sell. It was wild during COVID when money was free, and interest rates were. Like we were done to write, selling a building at a seven cap and getting an offer for a five.

Yeah. I'm selling it out of here. Bye. I sold a building in Arkansas for a five cap, so you'll repurchase it at a ten or whatever. But once I did that, I said okay. And I looked at everything we owned in the game, which had been big blocks. Buy big blocks up north and wait for the big user. And I went to my leasing team, I have in townhouse leasing, and I said, okay, what are you seeing?

They go, what do you mean? Please write down every tenant that comes through here, the size, what they're looking for, and where they're from. It's her from Dallie in town, out of town. And I said, 60 days, we're going to sit down again, come back, and I look, and I got a 90 000-foot block. There's an eight 000-foot tenant and a six and a 000-foot tenant. I will build it in the spec suites, and I wanted to make two floors. So 60 000 feet and do it in spec suites. Why? That was my customer. It's shifting to more petite entrepreneurial guys making decisions. I can control my cost. I don't have somebody telling me this, this, and this cause it's done.

So I'll build the lobby, put the finishes in, and where the offices go, I'll pop walls in when they come. I can have it ready for the guy in no time. And I can take my TI costs from 90 bucks to 70, and I'm prepared because people want to make a decision. And we've taken that building. It's a hundred per cent the least.

And all these other people are up there that we're competing with this still have the big blocks. Now they're starting to, but you, you have to be. The office is demanding. And you have to be on your toes and aggressive, and you have to face it like it. It was hard for me to meet that it's changing because most of the time I thought it was going to come back, first 18 months and we're going to be okay, you know, but it's not, it's going to be different.

And AI will change it to call centres, anybody that invested in them, yeah, that's trouble. Yeah. You can do dry storage or several floors of pickleball. I don't know. But I think all that's toast. So what's going to happen to these? It gets sold for land value.

Let's call it the wrong bill. Yeah. Land value. Land value. We're not there yet. It's coming, though. I've seen a couple of them. Like, I'm looking at a building on the tow way, and it's a dated building and could be better owned. It's a wreath. It's in trouble. And. It's about 60 per cent occupied. It has 130,000 buildings.

I told him I'd buy it for 5 million, and they wanted eight, but you should purchase something else today. It would help if you did not buy anything that's got deferred maintenance because you'll be able to buy stabilized quality office assets.

And I'm seeing it; I've come close on a couple, and what's happened is I've been close on one, and the partner bought out the institutional partner. So the institution says, we're out, they take it to market. The market dictates that it will sell at a 13 cap, and the partner buys them out. 

Chris Powers: Are there more people entering the buyer pool who weren't like the distressed buyers, or are there fewer buyers? Is it fewer nobody? But are they all the same buyers that were there before, just fewer of them? Or are these folks that might have been in something else, and now they're more opportunistic in saying, this is going to be our play?

Bill Cawley: Nobody wants the office. It has to be a layup. It's so good that it's a dirty word for them to do it. But do you remember retail in 2000 7, 8, 9? Retail was toast. What is it now? It's solid. 

Chris Powers: Well, it's what you said, though. The buildings that are working in the office are performing better than others.

The Crescent in Fort Worth is the most expensive building in town. It's you can't get in there. You go downtown, and they can't give it away. 

Bill Cawley: I've always wanted to build a building in Fort Worth for the same reason. I couldn't find a site because everybody is very conservative in their rates.

And John went and proved it. John went and built that building, and he's getting rent. Thirty per cent over anybody else because people want quality. They'll pay for it. You're going in there. Why wouldn't you? I want to be in a lovely building, but it's, and we have to face it. I don't believe that office buildings that are well done are toast.

They're not if they're well located. My buying criteria for an office building, but you asked them for equity. It's hard. So I do all private high net worth. We have about 40 family offices. So I went on a roadshow, not with a deal, but to say, okay, what do you think about office? All of them to a person said.

We have had success with you, so we will give you some money, but it won't be what we usually do. Yeah. If a guy typically provides us with a family and gives us 5 million, it will probably be a million or less. Yeah. And the problem is leverage is down, so if you're going to do 70 million building.

I need to raise 35 million. So it's just a big raise. It's a big lift.

 Chris Powers: Is construction levelled out, or is it still ongoing?

Bill Cawley: It's starting to and more in labour than materials. Cause people are their job. Their pipelines are drying up, but we have not seen any material savings. We, the one we're building in Plano, cut 4 per cent out, but we started that a year ago.

Chris Powers:I was talking to Barry last week, and he was saying, I guess he's on the board of a prominent contractor in Dallas, and they were saying that. They're busier than ever. And he's like, how could that, you know, how could that be? And he said it's usually 70% private and 30% government. And now it's just 70% government and 30% private.

And the government pays well, pays a lot. They're the best customer you could ask for once you get in bed with them.

Bill Cawley: All the contractors we typically use focus on government work. You know, none of them want to do it. They still want to build office buildings and industrial and whatever else.

But you know, you got to feed the beast. Right. But the opportunity is going to be an office. Suppose you have the guts to do it. But you have to be disciplined in what you buy. And, like what is talking about, John Goff wants to buy quality. And you will purchase quality at reasonable prices because you've got institutional owners just taking a broad brush and saying, Get rid of 20 per cent of our office or 30 per cent or whatever it is.

What do you think they're going to do? They will sell their best stuff because they won't sell their bad stuff. They're not going to get anything for it.

Chris Powers:Have you ever thought about building, and maybe you have, but have you ever thought about building the class AA tower crown jewel?

Bill Cawley: I've always wanted to, and we would build six to eight buildings a year, right?

Chris Powers:Starting in when? 07 or 08.

Bill Cawley: Whatever, I mean, like not, every year, but in the last few years, we were doing a lot of building buildings for companies like, you know, we had a, so we do a make a suit for people cause it was slow risk. It's great. And those days are over. If I'm lucky, a guy like me may build two well-done buildings once a year. 

Chris Powers:Starting when? 

Bill Cawley: It's now, like, I'm about to; I'm going to see if I can raise the money for the one I'm building now. 

Chris Powers:And then, is it buy and hold? There's no buy-and-sell market right now.

Bill Cawley: Yeah. So then, after talking to all the private networks, I went to the institution.

Here's the institutional framework for buying an office:

• No deferred maintenance
• 80 per cent of your equity back in five years in cash flow
• Two and a half multiple

So, no deferred maintenance, stabilized 80 per cent of your money back in cash flow, two and a half multiple. That means buying a quality building with an 11, 12, or 13 cap.

And so, like my view, seller's views, money's down here, and the sellers are coming to it. And it's going to happen this year, I do. But everybody's waiting because they're afraid to be too early. Now's thNow's. There's no debt or equity now; how have I been talking to my family offices?

Again, we thought we had one building just because I had an opportunity. I've got a building in Austin. I'm negotiating to buy right now, and it's in the Preston centre of Austin. It's a great location and building and about a 12-and-a-half cap. And it's 86 per cent leased.

Chris Powers:And right now, the current owners of those buildings, it's a death spiral cause they're not going to put any more money into them anyway. They can't even afford leasing commissions or tenant improvements. 

Bill Cawley: This institutional owner has the money, and they're just out. And so they've decided they were out, and then they saw the numbers and said, okay, we're not out.

Then they said, well, you know what? We're out. And now they're going to take their poison. And when I was driving over here, they counted us. So I made an offer. And they depended on me 250 000 higher on a 60 million deal. And I'm going to say no, but two fifties, nothing. What does that tell you in Austin, Texas?

And I'm still scared. I'm going to get it. It was fun to negotiate. I mean, you get it, and you go, okay, shit. Why did I get this, am I supposed to get this? That's where you go pray, right? God, what am I supposed to do? Give me peace about this. It's fun, though. 

Chris Powers:You started doing multifamily industrial.

Bill Cawley: Yeah, I love my team. I've got like 26 people. I have a hundred in my company, but I have 26 people in my office. 26, 27 best people I've ever had. So happy. Great culture. It's awesome. Flat. We all talk. It's we're, I love it. I got a lot of good young people. It's awesome. And you know, cause I used to want more extensive and more.

And I got up to about 280 employees, and it was wild. I was surprised to find out what anybody did or who they were. It was terror. It was no fun. But I have an excellent group, and I love the culture. And I said, okay, the problem with my business is it's all built on me. So I'm the rainmaker, and I start everything, and then they finish it.

I don't like to finish stuff. I want to create, deliver, and go to the next thing. And I have all these talented people that get into the minutia. And I'm a big believer in doing what you're doing all day long and letting others do that other stuff instead of messing with it.

Like I remember when I was a broker, a guy said to me, I've dyslexia. So reading is a problem for me, especially if I want to avoid reading it. And it's like a 90,000-foot lease, and he goes, okay, please read the lease over the weekend and give me your comments. It is my client.

I looked at him, and I said, yeah. You want me to refrain from reading your lease. He goes, what do you mean? And I said, listen, I'm here to negotiate the terms and ensure they honour him. I'm not your lawyer. You got to get a lawyer because I'm going to do a lousy job, and I can try and do this, and I'm going to come back, and it won't be very worthy.

So let's save the time and get the lawyer to do it. And that's the first time I ever had the guts to say it. Since then, I've never done it because I'm not good at it and don't want to. So I was worried about my team because I'm 70. And I'm sitting here going, Holy cow, how'd I get this old?

And I've got my daughter just moving here and want to protect and love them. And so I said, okay, I'm going to diversify. I had a guy I've been trying to hire. I bought Wilcox from Ray Hunt 35 years ago; he was running. Ray Hunt's industrial. He was running when he started Meridian Industrial Reef.

His name is Tim Keith. And I said, Tim, work for me. And he said no. And then he went to the reef, and then he left the reef. And I said, Tim, work for me. He said no. Then he went to another job, and he just kept saying no. So I was in Nordstrom's two years ago, buying pants on sale after Christmas. And there he is.

And he looks at me, I go, Tim, He goes, I'm a free agent. I said, this is the time. Come on. So we got together, and he had been working on the bullet train and told me it was about to unravel because they would not go forward. And so I had the right guy. I'm a big believer in betting on people.

So, I hired him and made him my industrial partner. And we got in the industrial business. We bought 400 acres in South Dallas. We purchased 200 acres in Sanger and started trying to buy industrial. We've been buying bigger stuff, but not million square feet, by two to 500 000-foot buildings with 18 months to two years left on the lease.

What everybody else is telling, right? And we're, I love Laredo. We're down in Laredo. We've got a land position and are about to build a spec building there if I can raise the money. So he's excellent, and that's going. Then, I wanted to get into the multifamily business. I had been in it and didn't like it, but I had the wrong partner.

And so we went out and found, cause I had JPI would call me all the time and say, can you build an office building here? So, plenty of let me build. 900 units. I said I would make the apartments if I created the office building. But those days are over. So, I'm in it, and we bought some land positions.

Right now, I'm not going to take any development risk. I don't have to, because I think it's wild. If you've got good land, and I use high net-worth people. So we pay cash for it. I'm just going to sit, and I'm going to get these positions and then be busy when the interest rates start coming down, and everything gets safer.

I'm going to go for it. So I've got land positions there, multifamily. I bought the Willow Bend Mall in Plano with Centennial, and Centennial is the retail guy. They're all guys. Steve Levin is a good friend and said, Hey, I've got Willow Bend Mall. And I said, I love that play cause it's, it's land value, and his job is to do the retail.

My job is in a multifamily office and hotel. I'm just going to help find a hotel. I won't own hotels, but to help with everything Non-retail. 

Chris Powers:Have you ever been tempted to get into hotels? 

Bill Cawley: After nine 11, I got into the hotel business. 

Chris Powers:Why'd you get out? 

Bill Cawley: I liked it. I picked the guy, and I liked the wrong guy. And we bought three hotels. I own the Green Oaks in here. I tore it down. I built an office building there. 

Chris Powers:The Green Oaks is like on Green Oaks Boulevard. That's right by my house. What's it now?

Bill Cawley: It's an office building that cooks children's.

I built the building. Raytheon leased it or not, and Lockheed contracted it. Then, the cooks and children bought it from me about ten years ago. I wouldn't say I liked the business. It's an operating business. You know.

Chris Powers:I've had a couple of people who are in the hotel business and do well in the hotel business.

But they always say, if you stay in real estate long enough and make enough money, you get into the hotel business, and it's great. I wouldn't have wanted to be in it in 2020 or 2021, but it's what you said. It's that and senior health and senior housing. It's an operating company more than it is a real estate business.

Bill Cawley: Right. You know, for me, one of the things I've learned. It's to stay in my lane like I went and did those; I had a great idea. They said we'll never travel again after 9/11. I said, okay, that means we need to buy hotels. That's rainwater in the back of my head. Buy hotels. I went and needed to learn more to know enough to get the right guy.

And then we went and bought them, bought the wrong stuff, and had one disaster. One. Okay. One great one. And overall, it was fine. 

Chris Powers:How did you find your multi-guy networking? 

Bill Cawley: I just kept reaching out. 

Chris Powers:And what'd you look for? So you said, I want to get into multi and build class multi and probably good areas of Dallas. Was that the thesis?

Bill Cawley: No. The thesis was I wanted to build three and four stories walk the surface park, stick-built. That's where you make your money in multifamily. 

Chris Powers:Why? 

Bill Cawley: Well, it's less risky. It's lower rents. It's easy to deliver. 

Chris Powers:Does walk-up mean no elevators? 

Bill Cawley: Yeah. You put elevators in, but it's a stick-built product instead of a high-rise. And so, when I started, I wanted to go out north and build apartments and office buildings. But mixed-use is the answer in the future. But now what, what, what, what it's morphed into. So well bent when he came to me, I said, I'm in. And so what we're going to do with will bend is a million square feet.

We're going to tear down 700,000 square feet. We're going to make it smaller. It's too big. Their Centennial is going to do all the retail we have. We just got zoning approval. We will go back to the city council in two weeks. So I still need it but for about 900 950 units. So that's four lovely projects in a Primo location, and we bought this mall at a price where I'm buying it for land value. I've got 5,000-structure parking stalls there, making it a walkable location. I'm going to stick an office building right up next to one of those parking garages, and I'll be 30, 40 per cent under cost, you know, in the only walkable location in all of Plano, and I think I'll kill it that now that's where you could go build a particular building.

Because it's got a courtyard and food, I'll send you the deck when we're done, what we're going to try to mirror the domain. 

Chris Powers:Is Centennial Murdoch. 

Bill Cawley: No, Centennial is Steve Levin. We're dads. He's a stud. God, I love him.

Chris Powers: What a, I've never met him.

Bill Cawley: He's the great, Most prolific guy. He's got more guts than anybody I've ever met.

He's not afraid of risk. You know, some of these guys don't have the risk gene he's Boom. He's all in. And he's good. He's perfect. And he does it with like three people. It's wild. 

Chris Powers:How do we go by Ridge More Mall together?

Bill Cawley: Is it for sale? 

Chris Powers: Well, it's been in this; the CMBS note has been in forbearance since, like, 2016.

I mean, if you drive by it, it is toast. 

Bill Cawley: Is it a good location?

Chris Powers: Oh, it's right there by Shady Oaks. It's one further down from it, on 54 acres. It's been busted up forever. Neiman's left everything left. I'm going to buy that. 

Bill Cawley: Neiman's is in Willow Bend, and we're trying to; the economy's helped us because they got nowhere to go, and they've got their issues, but they've got nowhere to go.

If Neiman's leaves Willow Bend, we have a land deal. It's not a mall. 

Chris Powers: All right. Well, that's the whole problem with the malls. 

Bill Cawley: What if you got one anchor that's, you got to buy it for land value or, you know, but I would be all over that because, you know, Fort Worth, it's hard to find that land. That land is incredible.

Chris Powers: This is incredible dirt. We may have something to work on.

Bill Cawley: I'm in on that. 

Chris Powers: All right. You were once young. It's a challenging industry. I was once young if young people are listening to this. Or people getting into the industry. It's a time when people have been in it or are wondering, should I stay in it?

Some people have yet to be in it coming out of college. It's you're getting into real estate in like 2010 to 2020, 22 is the greatest thing ever. What would you tell folks right now? 

Bill Cawley: We're fortunate. We're in Texas, my daughter. Kelly, I've got a daughter, Kaylee, and a Keeley, who's my wife, but I want them in the business and love them.

Real estate is an incredible industry, but everybody looks at it like it's easy, and we all know it's not. And so, it's work ethic, creativity and commitment, but it's good to get into an industry now. Where there's chop, because I think you learn more as my daughter moved here and it's like the, you know, everything stopped, and it's so slow in our company because we're, I'm not, going to take 60 million and build something for fees.

I'm not going to do it. If I have a good site, I will wait for a safe environment and maximize the bet. One of the things you learn as you get older is to make fewer bets and more money. You know, I got a guy that I invest with. It's creative. And I said to him we had a deal in Austin.

I was his partner, his money, it was a great deal. And he screwed the whole thing up because he's got too much on his plate. And I said, if you do half the business, you'd make three times the money. And so when you get an opportunity, focus on that opportunity cause it's good.

Every time you get an opportunity, it's risky. So less is more. 

Chris Powers: All right, Bill, this has been a great day. 

Bill Cawley: Awesome. 

Chris Powers: Thanks for joining me. 

Bill Cawley: Thanks for having me. I mean, you got all these frothy names. It was a pleasure to be included. It was, it was a real honour. 

Chris Powers: Thank you. Thanks.

Bill Cawley: Thanks for having me.