#321 - Casey Mericle - The Art of the Deal: Unconventional Deal Structuring in Real Estate

Chris Powers: If you are listening to this, I would have a pen and paper because I mean this from the bottom of my heart. This episode can make several millionaires if they listen to some things we're discussing without a little money. Casey is among the most brilliant minds I've encountered regarding deal structuring.

We were talking before recording, and my mind was already spinning. And we'll talk about that deal, but I'm serious. Today's going to be a cool episode. We have yet to do one quite like this on how we structure deals. Before we get into that, you were a professional poker player, or you play for a living.

Casey Mericle: I did that for about a year and a half.

Chris Powers: What about poker translate to real estate?

Casey Mericle: The unsaid, especially when you're buying, right? It's what people don't say; that is what you have to get at the heart of, right? So how they take their breath, how their lips move, you know, the corners of their mouths, when they pause.

Often, what they aren't telling you is more important than what they do tell you. Like there, many people won't tell you why they're selling something, but you can hear in hesitation or, you know, you can feel it if you're next to them, like there's something. You have to explore that.

Chris Powers: So, okay. That leads right to the next question, which will set the stage for how good deals come about. You've made a living off of understanding what sellers need.

Casey Mericle: Yeah. You give them what they want, and it's easy.

Chris Powers: How do you find out what a seller wants? Because sometimes you're not sitting across the table from them watching their, you know, lip quiver.

Casey Mericle: Well, yeah, you got to ask, right? So, every seller wants the highest price they can get. Every buyer wants the lowest price they can get, right? But often, a seller needs something else. Like a seller might need a short clothes.

A seller might need a long clothes. A seller might need tax relief. A seller might need it. I had a lady sell me a house once, and we couldn't get together on price. And I asked her, Hey, is there anything other than money that would make this deal work for you? She's like, I want to take myself and my husband to Hawaii first class.

And so that's what we did on my MX points. And that was way less than the 30-grand difference we were at, right? So, you can, not only that, but you can do it with mortgages, options, and all kinds of different stuff. It's can you change the currency? From something other than cash to get the deal done.

Chris Powers: Are there ways to find out what a seller wants without asking them, i.e., going through public records and seeing deeds of trust or following a paper trail? Or is there ever a way to figure out the story of what they need without them having to tell you that?

Casey Mericle: Yeah, I think sometimes, but I mean, you got to. You still have to ask or ask brokers questions.

So you can figure that out, but a lot of what I'm poking and prodding at, like if I'm talking to a seller or broker, right. And I'm figuring out, will somebody finance this for me? Right. I will ask one question: Is the seller going to 1031? Or are they going to put the money in the bank, right?

Based on that, if they say 1031, I will say, hey, have you found another property, or has your client found another property? And if they have, then, you know, I only know if I want to be a buyer if I can get a good cash price. If they haven't, I sit there and say, okay, well, seller, broker.

What are you looking for? I could get into a second transaction with them. So you may not be able to make money on the first one, but you might be able to make money on the second, like you might be able to get a good enough profit off the second one that you don't need a huge discount on the first one.

And if they say, Hey, I will put the money in the bank. I asked them, okay, well, what are you making of the bank? Three, 4%. Okay, well, what if, you know, what if you got 20 per cent more? Would that help with something that you like?

Chris Powers: How would you get them 20 per cent more?

Casey Mericle: Well, I'd give them 5%.

Chris Powers: Oh, yeah.

Casey Mericle: On a seller-fi deal. So, Hey, you already know this asset. You're comfortable with it. You're just going to put the money in the bank. The bank's not going to; I mean, the bank's great and safe, but it's less money than I would. Would you like to do that?

Chris Powers: And they say, Casey, I've never met you. The bank seems solid. It's a, I can drive there. They've been around a long time. I've never met you, even if you give me 20 per cent more. Is the risk worth the reward? And you're trying to convince them of that relatively quickly. How would you do that?

Casey Mericle: Hey, Chris, how much do you like paying taxes? And so, based on the size of the deal we do, you'll save anywhere from 15 to 22 per cent on taxes. If you take an instalment sale or finance the property, right? And so some, you know, PE people are going to say no to me because they're trying to, you know, spin, buy, sell, flip as quickly as possible, but somebody that's older and thinks that Uncle Sam doesn't spend their money wisely.

And would like to save, you know, 20% per cent on their taxes and do better than they could at a bank on something that they know what it is and it's secured by makes a lot of sense for them.

Chris Powers: I'm a PE guy who also doesn't think Uncle Sam spends my dollars wisely, just to be clear. So you answered the next question, which could you give a little colour to?

Do individuals tend to want things that companies or professional investors don't? Was that the answer? Like, do you think about them differently?

Casey Mericle: Yeah. I can only do a few deals with institutional people. I just, I don't; I'm sub-institutional. I know and stay in my lane, but I know people, right?

And I know that, you know, I was talking to somebody yesterday, and they're like, why can't we get this deal done? We're giving them a ridiculous amount of money. I'm like, they don't want money. Well, they want money, but they also want you to buy them a new house, and they want you to move them there. And that's how you get this. You buy them a new house and offer to move them.

Chris Powers: Okay, real quick, go back. You said I can save you 15 to 20%. You said instalment sale. What's an instalment sale?

Casey Mericle: An instalment sale is just payments.

Chris Powers: I'm the seller. You come to me and say I'll buy it for a million bucks. I said, deal.

Casey Mericle: Yeah, deal right, and okay. So, instalment sale. So you're going to finance it for me, and we will agree on what I will give you down and the terms, right? And I'm going to pay you over time. And so that's one way I can spend a higher price. And that's how I'm getting deals done right now because, for context, if you listen or watch this later, interest rates are at 8%.

The bid asks spread between buyers and sellers is a wide gap, and people can't, you know, they can't make deals, Pletzl, right? So I'm getting deals done by asking the seller, Hey, will you make an instalment sale? Will you sell or finance? I can give you a higher price.

You have to do terms I like, which are below-market interest rates and a longer-term deal. But most people are keyed up; they want to fight you on price. I mean, they're all keyed up to resist you on price. So if you say to them, Hey, I'll scratch your back, and you scratch my back, it'll work out for both of us.

You know, sometimes you can do a deal.

Chris Powers: You would be willing to pay more than a property's worth.

Casey Mericle: Because I can make it up in the financing. So, most buyers I buy from need a time value of money calculator. And so all the finance guys out there will be like, no, we'd never take this.

We can do the math. Well, yeah, you can do the math. That's fine. Right, but most of the finance guys would raise rents like crazy on Grandma and Grandpa, too. Right. So there's a balance.

Chris Powers: Yeah. So, okay. But how would, if I sold it to you there, how would I save money paying taxes and an instalment sale? Is that what you said?

Casey Mericle: Yeah. So you'll save money in taxes in a couple of ways. So, well, let me start with this. So, when you sell, it depends on when you bought. So you can have short-term tax, what is it? Short-term capital gains and long-term capital gains.

Chris Powers: You only pay a little taxes.

Casey Mericle: I pay my fair share like everybody else.

Chris Powers: I was going to say you're probably just a whiz.

Casey Mericle: I don't know about that. So, if you sell within a year, you'll have short-term capital gains. If you sell after a year, you'll have long-term capital gains, right? If you charge interest, interest is taxed at ordinary income rates.

So ordinary income rates are based, it's graduated based on your tax rate, right? But in a commercial deal, you will usually be in one of those top two or three brackets because, you know, the sale will be a million dollars or more. Why don't we raise the price instead of a big interest rate?

If we raise the price, you get taxed on long-term capital gains. Then, instead of ordinary income. So that's why I tweeted something the other day with a breakdown table. I can't tell you because there are, you know, five or six or seven tax brackets, and it goes up or down, but it's like the difference between 15 per cent and 37 or 38%.

Chris Powers: Yeah, you alluded to; I do sub-institutional deals. Will you describe the type of deals you're looking for? What are their characteristics of them, asset class, capital stack, and geography?

Casey Mericle: Yeah. Geography, America, land of the free, home of the brave, capital stack. I use seller financing when I can, but I can only sometimes.

I will call or text a friend occasionally and say, Hey, you want to invest in something with me? What was the third thing you asked me?

Chris Powers: Do you invest across the capital stack or asset class? Are you asset class agnostic?

Casey Mericle: I'm pretty agnostic. I'll buy almost anything. I won't accept anything.

I don't want to get caught with something I know I can't move, but most stuff I know I can. If I'm going to hold, I don't like anything that's hospitality-related or high touch, if you will.

Chris Powers: How do you find deals if you have a big sandbox? If America, is it just every Broker in America knows who you are and how you source, what do you?

Casey Mericle: But this is going to put a stop to that.

Chris Powers: The email address will be in the show notes to send them your deals. Send Chris Powers a commission check.

Casey Mericle: So the question is, how do I find a deal?

Chris Powers: Yeah, how do you source deals? When I think of class, like for me, class B industrial in the Sunbelt, I want everybody in the Sunbelt to know if you think of those two things, Sunbelt class B industrial, I'm your guy.

You're saying a lot is I'm your guy for a lot of things. So, how do people find you? How do you see deals?

Casey Mericle: Well, I look for opportunities, right? Right now, I want something between two and 15 million sub-institutional, probably an older seller. So I'm looking for somebody who wants to give me seller financing and wants a higher price.

Or I'm trying to find something with, you know, I'm opportunistic. So I'm trying to find something with an upside or that I've got a different take on, so that's it. Or can I fix a problem? And I'm decent at fixing problems.

Chris Powers: And that's the reputation you've been building within the industry is like, if we have a headache, call Casey the doctor.

Casey Mericle: Yeah. Well, it's like, so, the broker calls me the other day, right, and he says, Hey, you told me to contact you. He's in Colorado. He told me to get you when I had A buyer and a seller, and they're close, right? My seller needs 8. 5 million for this deal, and my buyer's at $ 8 million, right? Can you help me?

I said, well, does your seller have equity? Yeah, they've got 4 million. Okay, will they finance it? Yeah, they'll invest. Okay, what if I came in and bought for eight and a half million? And I sold for eight months. And I'll take that loss as a short-term loss. Now you're saying finance-bros, they're going crazy.

They're going, Oh my gosh, they're going to hate me, come at me. You don't want to come at me. I'm just telling you they're saying, why would you lose half a million dollars? Right. And it's because I know that if I get the financing I want, let's in this deal, he would finance two and a half million dollars, right?

Eight years at, like, 4%, something like that. I know that if I went and got a loan at 8 per cent or eight and a half per cent or whatever it is now, that one for eight years, just the interest, I'd save a million dollars in interest between the difference from a banknote and my note, right?

The other thing I know is that I will make that debt walkable. And we can talk about that later, where I can move the debt from property to property, and that's advantageous for me, too. Right, and what happens at closing? Buyer brings 8 million. The seller has to pay off 4 million in debt.

The seller wants another 1. 5 million in their pocket. So 4 million plus 1. 5 is 5. 5. And then the other 2 million or two and a half million is extra. With walkable debt, I don't have to pay that off at closing. I'll move the mortgage to another property. I'll put that two million dollars. Is it two or two and a half in my pocket?

And I'll buy something else and put that mortgage on whatever I believe. So, what is the result of that one broker getting paid brokers? If you're close and can't make it, you know who to call, call the doctor. The broker gets paid. The seller gets paid. The buyer gets to buy.

I get some great financing. So it works for everybody. You have to have willing counterparties.

Chris Powers: Okay, you said that now is one of the best-selling financing opportunities you've seen in the last 10 to 15 years. Let's get a basic one-on-one out. We understand what seller financing is. Why is it the best time right now to be doing seller financing?

Casey Mericle: Yeah, banks don't have liquidity, right? So nobody's lending. Sellers expect a higher price because they've seen that yesterday, but yesterday isn't today, and buyers know that's it. Let's say 8 per cent right now, 8 per cent interest rates. So, When you see people selling at six caps, that means they're negative leverage, or they'll lose money essentially.

Right? So why seller financing is so great right now is, Hey, you know, typically in the PE model, you need 150 to 200 basis points to make a deal pencil. You see, you want to call it cap rate and leverage yield on costs, whatever you want to call it. So nobody's buying because everything's negative leverage.

But I'm buying because I will get the seller to finance at that 150, 200 basis points, maybe less. Instead of an 8 per cent interest rate, I might be at four, and I can buy a six cap. And I can buy it all day. And everybody else can sit on their hands and pound sand finance-bros.

Chris Powers: Finance bros, if you still need to figure it out, we're coming for you.

How long are the notes that you're trying to structure? They are typical five-year notes. Are you trying to get a 10, 15, 20-year paper?

Casey Mericle: I tried to get it as long as possible. The lowest I'll go is five, but the deals, you know, have to be long enough for the deal to pay for itself.

So you got to put it in a calculator, but if I do five, I'd like an extension. So, and I'll, you know, I'll pay for an extension, but an extension, you know, extension is good for both sides, and it can be good for both sides because one, if I pay for an extension, then the seller's happy that they got additional funds.

Right, but it's also good because if the seller has, if the seller, the year that that balloon is due if I pay them all that money, they're going to pay Uncle Sam 40, 50 per cent of that. I don't know about you, but they don't manage it well. So, why don't we extend it and keep going instead?

And Hey, I'll give you, you know, I'll give you more money now, or I'll give you bigger payments, right? Or we'll increase the principal balance or come along for the ride. I'll help you, and you'll help me. And the way you help me is that if interest rates are high. When that balloon comes due, that's a risk, that's a big risk for me.

So, you know, you're helping me, I'm helping you, let me pay you a little more. Don't pay Uncle Sam, and we'll go on down the road.

Chris Powers: And real quick though, when they sell or finance, so let's say I owned a property for, I bought a property for a dollar, and you purchased it for me for a million, and I own or financed a hundred per cent of it.

Am I paying gains on the one to 1 million at that transaction? Because technically, I don't own it anymore, and I took a gain even though I turned it back into a note.

Casey Mericle: Yeah, so you're taking gains at that, at your tax bracket level, right? And whatever that capital gains table says, long-term capital gains are where you're getting taxed.

But you're not getting taxed as heavily as you would otherwise.

Chris Powers: Why? I'm still not hitting, and I'm not getting there.

Casey Mericle: Well, you're not getting taxes heavily because the government gives you a discount essentially.

Chris Powers: Oh, okay, and walkable debt that's important to you?

Casey Mericle: Yeah, it's great.

Chris Powers: Is it a must?

Casey Mericle: No, it's not a must necessarily.

Chris Powers: What is it?

Casey Mericle: Yeah. So, walkable debt is just being, so let me caveat by saying walkable debt. You will not get at a traditional lender. So it's strictly a seller financing bias, if you will. So it's, you've got property A. Chris is going to, and he's going to give me seller financing.

And it will have a sentence about walkable debt, right? And it's. I'm going to take that debt, and I'm going to move it from Chris's property, property A, to a second property, property B, right? Now, in doing that, you're asking yourself, why would somebody want to do that? Because that sounds a little risky to me, you don't do it to screw anyone over. Like, I'm trying to better their position. So I might walk somebody because I started them in the second position. I might move them to the first position, which is way better. I might take them from a property worth 2 000, 000 to a property worth 4 000, 000.

So, they got 2,000,000 of extra equity.

Chris Powers: They have to approve it when you're walking it, moving it from property to property.

Casey Mericle: Yeah, sometimes yes. Sometimes, it depends on the deal you work out with them. But you're doing it to help both sides. It's like it's collaborative, and you're not fighting over it. You're not trying to fight it.

Chris Powers: But if you're negotiating seller financing debt, one thing you're trying to arrange for is that it's a walkable loan, like that has to be written in the docs. It's not just because it's seller financing and didn't come from the bank you get.

Casey Mericle: Yeah. So, I will substitute that no collateral for something of equal or greater value. I'm going to take y if, you know, if you've got if you're holding my note, I'm going to take you to something better. I'm going to upgrade you like Beyonce says, right? Let me upgrade you, right? So I'm paying you, you know, three grand a month.

Hey, Chris, I don't know if you want to do this or not, but I've got; I can take it from second to position to the first position, and on your crappy property that's worth a million to this property that's worth 2 million. And, how about I give you four grand a month instead of three grand a month, and you don't have to pay Uncle Sam.

Chris Powers: If you said that, I'm Jay Z. I got 99 problems, and Beyonce isn't one.

Casey Mericle: There you go, exactly.

Chris Powers: Okay. I'm starting to come around. It's funny, it's like, I bought a lot of deals. I've never done any of this stuff. We've looked at the industry differently.

Casey Mericle: But we can do it either way.

Chris Powers: I agree. That's the great thing about this industry. There are a million ways to get what you want, it's, you know, we'll title it, like getting what you wish to, but okay then on the seller financing, you come to me. You bought it; let's say we created a 900,000 note. Am I sending that note to some servicing firm that's servicing the note?

Or do some of your sellers service it themselves? Or is there a law that it must be with a third party that collects?

Casey Mericle: And yeah, so you can do it either way. You can service your note. You've got to, but you're supposed to do it by the laws of the land. And that's called a little more tricky over the last, I'd say, seven or eight years, but it's always good to have a service there.

Because a servicer is going to keep way better books than mom-and-pop, so, and they don't, they only cost a little.

Chris Powers: For sure. What do they cost?

Casey Mericle: on a performing note, you can get a service for 15 to 30 bucks.

Chris Powers: And I would just Google like loan servicers and call them and say, I got this note from the Miracle Man, Casey Mericle.

Casey Mericle: Yeah, I'd help you find a service if you want.

Chris Powers: Okay. All right. You said I almost foreclosed on myself once. I hear of people getting foreclosed on by others, but only some people foreclosed on themselves. So are you like punishing yourself or?

Casey Mericle: I'm a bit of a sicko.

Chris Powers: There has to be a better story to this.

Casey Mericle: Yeah, it's an okay story. So COVID happened, right? And I'm sitting there with this scratchy piece of land that I got in a hard money loan, gone wrong.

Chris Powers: And real quick, land you lent on it. Borrowers are going sideways.

Casey Mericle: Yep. The borrower is a good friend and also sometimes a partner of mine. So, you know, you only occasionally want to have a heavy hand. So he said, Hey, why don't you take it and you figure it out? Thanks, and I was sitting there and COVID saying, Hey, nothing is moving.

Even on the MLS, I thought about taking a substantial discount. Cause I bought this thing, you know, at 50 per cent of its value. So, how can I quickly get a cash sale in COVID without paying as much commission to a broker? Well, foreclose on yourself. That's the way to go.

Chris Powers: So how does that work?

Casey Mericle: Well, in Texas, it takes, it's even shorter timeframe, you know, in my state, you can foreclose for about 2 500 bucks. A broker is going to cost you 4, 5, 6%. So that's a saving, and I was willing to take a discount and wanted to get a cash sale auction. Well, foreclosure auctions were still happening in COVID in my area.

So I knew that there would be 30 people at the auction. So, why don't I foreclose on myself, and then I can sell this thing in a month and a half?

Chris Powers: We're going to go through like a fifth grader. Why would you not have listed this on the MLS and sold it that way? Cause you didn't think that the buyers would be there. They were all at the foreclosure auction.

Casey Mericle: I thought there needed to be more buyers to buy this scratchy commercial land. I thought I would, and I might have one buyer. It was going to take me months. Right. And so I wanted to speed up the process. So, with how quickly foreclosures are in my state, that sped it up; I got to pay less commission.

I get no commission. And foreclosure cost me 2,500 bucks. So that's less than that's way less than I would have paid a broker. I wanted an auction-style sale and to get them lathered up to buy. So, I knew I'd have cash buyers. And I and I could take a discount; it didn't bother me to take a discount.

Chris Powers: Okay. I'm just going to make up the scenario. People probably listen to this going. Man, Chris does real estate. Your friend, I'm just making numbers up, and you can correct me if I'm getting off here. Let's say he bought the land for a million bucks, and you told your hard money loan to him was for what? 500.

He says, Casey, we're buddies, but I can't make this happen anymore. Here are the keys, the proverbial keys to the land that has no door. And you say, great. Your basis in the land is 500,000. You own the note. Do you also know you're in the ownership of the LLC that owns the land? So you're on both sides.

Casey Mericle: Yes. Different entities.

Chris Powers: Different entities, both sides. And at that point, you also said, I don't even know if I can get 500 for this thing. Is that fair?

Casey Mericle: No, I said, Hey, fair market values a million.

Chris Powers: It was still a million?

Casey Mericle: Yeah, a fair market value is a million. I could take 756, and I'd still be happy. And I'd still make a killing.

Chris Powers: Got it. Okay. That's where I got tripped up. I thought the value had dipped below 500, and you still focused on yourself. I was like, okay.

Casey Mericle: No, if I'm going to get a hard money loan, it's good. I'm going to make sure that I'm buying well, undervalued.

Chris Powers: So why did he just in that situation? He couldn't make the payments anymore, even though it was worth a million bucks.

Casey Mericle: He just got disinterested and couldn't find a buyer and thought I could do a better job. And so what's interesting about that story, though, is it started to foreclose, only got some of the way there.

Had somebody else contacted me about a hard money loan? Who's a commercial GC? And he says, Hey, I heard you, you do storage on occasion. I want to do storage. I said I've got the perfect piece of land for you. And I'll take a big discount. If you go, you know, you build and finance it. You manage it, and I'll show you how to manage it.

And we did that deal. And now there's a couple, I don't know, it's a couple million dollars self-storage facility that I get a piece of.

Chris Powers: Okay, how'd you structure that deal? So you had it, you said, I'll put the land in at X.

Casey Mericle: I'll put the land in it at X.

Chris Powers: No loan. It's your equity that you're putting it in at.

Casey Mericle: Yeah. Well, how would you like not to have to put any money in the deal? No cash down deal, you buy it, finance it, and manage it. I'll take it; I got a haircut. I took a 150,000 loss on it, off the 500 K.

Chris Powers: Oh, okay. So you, you at three 50.

Casey Mericle: Yeah. But you know, I had something else that I sold that year, and I made about that much, so I needed a loss, a real estate professional. And so I got a loss, and you know, now I've got a piece of this thing, and we're rolling down the road.

Chris Powers: That's great. Before I get too far away from seller financing, besides walkable, is there anything else interesting you negotiate in seller financing notes that you wouldn't see from a traditional lender besides everything?

What two or three things stand out from things you've thought to negotiate?

Casey Mericle: Yeah. So, for instance, people on Twitter contact me and say, Casey, you know, I'm putting this into the mortgage calculator, and even if I can't make the payments, the payments don't work.

Right, and so the payments don't work because the interest is too high. And so they give up, so one thing they should think about is the interest rate, 6%, right? You could split it up and have 2 per cent amortizing and 4 per cent accruing. So then your payments are low enough where you're going to cash flow.

And you kick the can down the road, but the seller still gets, they still get their 6%, right? So that's. You can do that to grease the wheels, if you will.

Chris Powers: Okay. That's one. Anything else?

Casey Mericle: I mean, you can do a million things. You can go simple instead of compound.

You can interest only instead of amortizing. You can do reverse amortization. You can restructure the whole thing. Like, this is a little banana. But I, on occasion, you get a three-legged stool, if you will. Right? So, you've got a seller who won't take a note, right?

But you know, a note buyer, right? And you want to transact. One thing you could do is, Hey, no buyer brings the money. To buy the note at closing and do a three-legged deal. So the buyer gets to buy, and the seller gets to sell but won't finance. So you put the note buyer in the middle of it.

And so you can get the whole deal done.

Chris Powers: The seller doesn't have to hold the paper.

Casey Mericle: Yeah. Now, that's harder to do, and you must line up the money and time it right.

Chris Powers: So, can I ask a dumb question? Why would you not just go to the note buyer and say, why don't you originate this note?

Like, let's save the seller out of it. Just originate it, and it's yours. Why do they have to buy it from somebody if they're?

Casey Mericle: They don't. You could do it that way.

Chris Powers: Okay. Yeah. Other question? You come to me, say we're back at that million-dollar property. And would you sell or finance it? And I say, man, I'd love to, but I already have an 800,000 debt with a bank. How do you work around that?

Casey Mericle: Well, you'll have to pay off the bank. Unless it's like a private lender, you can do that if the deal still pencils. If the deal doesn't pencil, 800 out of a million is probably, like, I wouldn't buy that, right? Unless there was a big upside, or I knew I could do something to differentiate it, to juice the returns.

But if you said, Hey, I've got. 300, then, Chris, can I pay off your loan?

Chris Powers: Okay. Your down payment would be 300.

Casey Mericle: Yeah. My down payment will be at least 300, probably more than that. Cause I'm going to come to you and say, Hey, you know, you're going to want some money probably to do something else.

My down payment may be 500. Could I, Chris, would you give financing if I came to you with a monster down payment, like 50%? I sometimes do that differently. But usually I'm between 20 and 50%. And that's most brokers. You know, a year ago, when you talk to them, if you said seller financing, they said no, but if I'm going to come in with 20, 30, 40, 50%, then I'm heavy or heavier.

They give me a little more respect, so yeah.

Chris Powers: Okay. And I assume you use something other than traditional banks that differs from your business model.

Casey Mericle: Yeah, I do, so I started. I syndicated a few deals a few years ago, and that was fine. And we're doing just fine, but I don't love personally guaranteeing stuff with tricky, non-specific, or opaque covenants, so I will personally guarantee to somebody else where it is specific and clear, right? But I don't, I don't love that if the bank is having trouble that they call you up and say, Hey, you know, we want to renegotiate that. And most notes, if you read them, they can do that, I know, guys, you know.

Chris Powers: So if you came to me again and said, I'm going to buy that property for a million, I've owned it for 30 years. It's on my depreciation schedule. Like literally, even if you paid me a dollar, I'm paying to the government. Is this a solution for me? I just got to go to 1031.

Casey Mericle: So that is the solution. And people come to me sometimes with that. And they're like, I don't know how to find what I need. And so one thing that we do is help them find what they need. Help them match up their needs as far as basis goes with a new property and yield. And then from there, sometimes we even let them buy it back so they can start the depreciation schedule again.

Right, and so buybacks go hand in hand, and nobody's paying attention to that in real estate, and they should be.

Chris Powers: Okay. So you come to me and say, I want that million-dollar property. And I said, look, I had a great dinner last night. I saved it for a holiday and want 2 million for it now.

And you said, but it's worth a million. You might have a solution for how we can get this done. To convince me to get off of two. How would you propose that deal?

Casey Mericle: Yeah. So, if you're far apart, right? And the counterparty, the seller, needs the money, right?

You say to them, Hey, I'm at one, you're two, I'll do one, and I'll let you buy it back within a year, two years, three years. For 20 per cent more, if you are convinced that it's worth 2 million, you'll be back. If you aren't, then let's agree that it was worth a million in the first place, and you won't be back. And either one's fine. I don't care.

Chris Powers: So it's worth 10 million. You'd say, great. Then, it would help if you bought it back for 1. 2.

Casey Mericle: That should be the greatest deal you've ever done. So that's an easy way to get there.

Chris Powers: And how do you pay for that one up?

Casey Mericle: Yeah, well, you do a regular PSA by sale agreement, right?

With an option to buy it back right, the buyback is 20 per cent more than the original price per year. Cause I don't want, like, I don't know about you, but I don't lust for property. I just for money. And so I don't care if I have that property in a year, pay me my 20%.

Chris Powers: You're not getting married to any of the things you're buying.

Casey Mericle: No. I like it, and there are things I like more than other things. And there's things I'll hold that I, that I like, and there's things that I won't have that I don't like.

Chris Powers: So honey, look at our Dutch people.

Casey Mericle: Yeah. Look at it. She's looked at some stuff and said, why did you buy that?

Chris Powers: Okay, but the answer to that is I bought it. Cause I was not looking at the real; you were looking at it through a pure finance lens. The collateral has to make up for and be there, but that's part of the finance equation.

Casey Mericle: So when you say pure finance, my finance lens is probably rose-coloured compared to others, but yeah.

Chris Powers: Did you make up your rose-coloured finance lens, or did somebody teach you all this?

Casey Mericle: No, many guys out of Tampa came up in the seventies and eighties and taught me all this.

So, my mentor is a guy named Jack Shea. He's still alive. He's the oldest qualified intermediary in Florida. I contacted him, he mailed me a course, and I emailed him a digital version. And he said we can save on stamps. And there's been a beautiful relationship since then; he's a great man.

Chris Powers: So if I said, what do you know that most people in real estate don't know, what would your answer be?

Casey Mericle: Oh man, boy, that's a heavy question, Chris.

Chris Powers: Oh, and I'll give you, I'll let you think about it. It's just that rose-coloured lens that you look at the industry through, even myself; if you look, I've been doing this for 18 years; all I've ever done is buy and sell the property.

I buy the whole thing. Nobody's ever owned or financed me. I got banks all over town. They're awesome. I've never considered the business, but you have built an inch. So it's like. What is that rose lens telling you the average real estate investor isn't thinking about?

Casey Mericle: the average real estate investor is a short-term versus a long-term thinker.

Chris Powers: And you're a long-term thinker.

Casey Mericle: I'm long-term on days that I need to be. And on days that I need to sell for cash tomorrow, I'm a short-term thinker. I can be either, but I prefer to be a long-term thinker.

Chris Powers: So, are you building a portfolio of property or loans? Or all the above?

Casey Mericle: Yeah.

Chris Powers: Okay. And some you keep and some you sell.

Casey Mericle: Yeah. And it depends on the day. Right, and so, you know, I'm an opportunist. When an opportunity arises, I need more money. And so I've got to either sell something, right, or derivative something.

And so how do I, you know, think to myself, okay, well, I need a million dollars. How do I get that? Now I can make a phone call for a million dollars. Maybe the seller finances for a million dollars. I could sell something I have for a million dollars. You got a mortgage, something I have for a million dollars.

You may have options, something I have for a million dollars. I could create a contract or a wrap for a million dollars.  

Chris Powers: What does derivating something mean?

Casey Mericle: Yeah, well, like an option, right? It's not a buy-sell. You don't own a property. You own a contract to buy a property.

So you've got the right, but not the obligation to buy. And so you don'tproperty. You don't own a note. But you own this piece of paper that says, I've got a chance to do something with it.

Chris Powers: Correct. And why would that be valuable? Because you think you got it under contract for less than it's worth.

Casey Mericle: Yeah. So, you used to assemble land, right? Would you rather buy or option? Option all day, right? Because then your cost of capital is much lower. And so if you option something, you're saying essentially, Hey, we're I will on a price. I will give you some option consideration, like earnest money, but you still need to get it back.

Right, and you know, give me some time. It's like a layaway at Walmart. You might be too young for layaway. Hey, let's put it on layaway at Walmart. Right? So you go in, you pay your 5, you know, every month, or you pay a big lump, some payment, and they hold it for a year or two. And then you come back once you've assembled all the land or all the parcels, and you sell it to somebody else for more and make a boatload of money.

Chris Powers: I like that.

Casey Mericle: Yeah. I bet you do. I'd like to hear a story about that.

Chris Powers: We can tell him, when you're assembling, especially if you're building residential, but really anything, one of the best pieces of advice I ever got was it's a here in town. He would run all the titles at the title company and have it done, and it was cleaned before he even contacted the seller.

He'd put up 50 grand of earnest money at the title company, saying seller, and he would say, if you sign this contract in the next 48 hours, you can immediately take that 50 grand, and we'll close in a week. And it's amazing what cash today can do to somebody if you're negotiating.

Casey Mericle: And now is a great time to do that.

Chris Powers: What are you seeing in the market right now? Most people listening like rates are up, but what's your rosy lens showing right now? What is your niche sub-institutional world going through right now?

Casey Mericle: Okay, so I'll say this. I'm not a macroeconomist, right?

And no, I don't have a crystal ball, but rates are increasing. Banks aren't lending. So there's a liquidity squeeze. All of the COVID stimulus money is running out. Consumers need the money in their bank accounts they used to have, right? Which all points to pain coming.

And I'm seeing some of that start already. I'm sure you are, too. So, you know, I don't wish for pain, but I do like to buy distressed stuff. Full disclosure: if I can get a discount, I want a discount, but people always contact me to figure out how to fix things.

And so, like, I try to help them fix things. So, but I, like a doctor, can't help you if somebody stabbed you right in the heart, you know, so, you know, there are limits.

Chris Powers: So, is the phone starting to ring? And is it mostly I need cash? Is it mostly I'm underwater on this property? Is it all the above? Why are people starting to call?

Casey Mericle: Yeah. I need cash; I am underwater on this property, and my loans are maturing. Yeah, I've been getting a lot of my loans developing.

Chris Powers: Okay. So I just called you, Casey. My loans are maturing. I need help. What are your first few questions for me? Clearly, in that situation, it's one thing for a buyer to approach a seller.

And the sellers sit in the driver's seat. They don't have to sell. But now the tables are turning in the sellers calling the buyer. So I call you, and I'm like, man, my loans are maturing next year. What are the first few questions you're going to start asking me?

Casey Mericle: I will ask you where it is to determine its worth.

And I might ask you what it's worth, but I won't believe you. What does the debt situation look like? Do you have one loan? Do you have two loans? What are your balances on the loans? How long do you have? Do you have cash? So that's something people don't think about, but I've had plenty of people willing to pay their way out of trouble, and you should be asking people to pay their way out of trouble.

Do you have other properties if you've got a step in the quicksand? So, sometimes, I can only do something if a deal is underwater. Do you have something else we can leverage, derivative or mortgage, or can you sell to get there right? Or do you know somebody else that will do that for you? And that happens sometimes.

Chris Powers: Okay. Will you go through the example of, you've written this on Twitter, but I'm asking a million why you might pay me a million to get a deal done, why you would actually pay more than I'm asking, but it's still a good deal for you.

Casey Mericle: Yeah. Cause I can get long term cheap financing to you is the answer to that.

Chris Powers: And because it's a walkable.

Casey Mericle: Well, and that helps, too, right? Cause that's like, it's cherry on the, on the ice cream, cherry on top. But yeah, I can make it up in the financing, and there are two ways in real estate to make money. You can flip, buy, and hold; I must find other ways.

You can finance, but let's put financing to the side. So, if you flip, you're in the PE model. You've got to burn and churn as quickly as possible. You try to raise the value, get your 200 tips, and you're in and out and go on to the next one. But people need to remember about cash flow, like, if you and I are going after the same deal and you can pay a million, and I can pay 1. 2, guess who's getting the deal right now and how I will do it? I will cash-flow way better than you with your 8 per cent debt. I will laugh at you when I have my debt at 4%. And you're going to say, how'd that thief do it? Right.

Chris Powers: Do you ever negotiate less? You keep going back to 4%. Are you ever doing even less than that?

Casey Mericle: Yeah. I try for less.

Chris Powers: Have you ever done a zero-interest loan?

Casey Mericle: Yes.

Chris Powers: That was walkable.

Casey Mericle: Yes.

Chris Powers: All right. If I told you we'd covered a few things, but that's another, I want to spend like my question here on my piece of paper is give me like two or three creative ways to get things done that you've seen, or that you've done that we have not covered yet.

Casey Mericle: Creative ways to get things done.

Chris Powers: If you want to hint at the one we discussed before, create a simulation.

Casey Mericle: I'll create a simulation of that, right? So let's say.

Chris Powers: Me, you and Johnny, here's the party. We're all in it together.

Casey Mericle: Me, you and Johnny. All right. Okay. Johnny's the bank.

Chris Powers: Okay. A real bank or any bank?

Casey Mericle: No, Johnny can be a real bank, or he can be a lender. And let's say that I've defaulted on my mortgage. And you, you want to buy it. So one thing that I think is pretty interesting is that Chris, maybe you say to Johnny, Hey, you're asking me to pay full market value par for that note that Casey, that scumbag, isn't spending on, right.

And you're right, but you won't do that because why would you pay full market value? You know, the full balance on something that's not paying. It doesn't make sense. So you go, and you say to yourself. I will do something else like you can lend me 4x the principal balance of this.

So this is a nice way to get something financed that you traditionally couldn't. Let's say you have a piece of development land, and you want to get it funded for some reason or the other, like they'll lend you the money on terms that you like. Without a personal guarantee, you're a heavy signer.

That's a way to get financing terms that you like to buy something you think you could do something with. And make a little money on, not, you break even.

Chris Powers: And real quick, there's a friend that owns a piece of land, and I'm going to them, and I'm putting paper on that land.

Casey Mericle: Well, no, not, not in this scenario. We aren't there yet. So this is, Hey, you say to the bank, I'll take your problem. I'll take your problem at par, but you'll lend me four times the problem on terms that I like that I write. Okay, so your guarantee is gone. Sorry, but you're going to get me as a heavy signer. And I'll take care of your problem. You could also say to them, " Hey, let's do a trade. I'll trade you one or more notes I have for your problem note. And if you want to sell a par, that's fine. But I want to trade a par, too. But my notes are worth more than yours.

So, Chris, if you go to Starbucks and hand the barista a 20 and say a Venti, what do you get back? Change. That's the bank for change in this day and age.

Chris Powers: Maybe not, but we used to.

Casey Mericle: Yeah. So, in that scenario, the defaulted note I wasn't paying on is a million-dollar balance, and the note you can buy somewhere else is a 3 million balance, right?

But you could get that note for 500 off. You can source performing notes for less. And those aren't the right numbers, but roll with me here on the example, right?

Chris Powers: So 1 million, bad note, 3 million, good note.

Casey Mericle: Yeah. Instead of getting the discount on the defaulted note, you're getting a nice discount on the performing note and trading them.

And sometimes you can do it so well where. You can pay for the performing note and the non-performing note. The bank will play ball if you can get a big enough discount.

Chris Powers: And what's in it for you?

Casey Mericle: Well, what's in it for you is that you just, you might've got a free, whatever that, that defaulted note is on just out of thin air.

Chris Powers: How?

Casey Mericle: Because when the bank comes in to buy your note, let's make it bigger. Let's make it: your note is 7 million, or the note that you can buy is 7 million, and the note that's defaulted is one, right? You can buy that 7 million note for six. Well, the bank comes to escrow essentially. Pay seven because they're paying full face value, right? But you are spending six. You're using their money to pay six because you negotiated a good discount, and then you get this, the defaulted thing, for free.

Chris Powers: And so the only thing, the only nuance to what you just said, is being able to negotiate a 7 million good note for 6 million bucks. Suppose you don't do that.

Casey Mericle: Yeah, but make the note and discount smaller.

Chris Powers: But you keep saying, make the note this. What do you mean by making the note?

Casey Mericle: Like, either find it or create it.

Chris Powers: Okay. Now, let's talk about creating it. How do you make a note?

Casey Mericle: If you give me an address, I can create a note on your property right now.

Chris Powers: But I have to own it free and clear.

Casey Mericle: No, you don't. I can just record it, and you won't know about it for a while, but you shouldn't do that; that's a fraud, so we'll have to slap on the disclaimer before this comes out.

Chris Powers: But let's assume we're buddies, and I have this piece of free land. I have a land free and clear. And you're in this situation. You come to me, and you say, Hey, what?

Casey Mericle: Hey, Chris, what are you making on your land right now?

Chris Powers: I'm losing money. I'm paying property taxes. I got to mow it.

Casey Mericle: Insurance.

Chris Powers: Maybe insurance.

Casey Mericle: How would you like to make money on it?

Chris Powers: Oh, be amazing.

Casey Mericle: Okay. What if I asked, yeah, well, what if I gave you 5 per cent a year on 3 million? You do that for me.

Chris Powers: Why, why?

Casey Mericle: Because I want to put a mortgage on your property.

Chris Powers: Oh, wow. But I'm free and clear. It is getting complicated.

Casey Mericle: You're free and clear, but we're friends, right? So you don't do this with counterparties. You don't know. You're only doing this with people you've done business for that like and trust.

And so I say, Hey. Let me give you some money. Let me put this note on your property short term because I'm probably walking it, and I will walk it from where it is now to something else that does make money because I don't want to pay you 5%. I need a short-term parking space.

Chris Powers: Are you technically owning the property when you put that collateral on there, or do I still own it?

Casey Mericle: No, you still own it. I'm going to make the payments on it. So you won't even have to make the payments on it. I'll make payments to you. I'll make payments on the note. Now you just got to make sure that I stay alive, right? I do what I say I'm going to do.

Chris Powers: Okay, So I say, okay, I trust you, Casey. Let's do that. Yep. Then what do you do?

Casey Mericle: Well, then what I try to do is go from, like I said, I'll try to find another property that's income producing. So I don't have to pay you the 5%.

The property will pay for the note that I originated. Right. And then I'll move it off of you. I'll move it to a different income-producing property. So I cut you out. So you made your 5 per cent for a year. I cut you out. I moved it to another property that's a ten cap. Right. And now I'm cash-flowing with cheap debt.

Chris Powers: All right.

Casey Mericle: Rewind.

Chris Powers: No, do you own it when you say you're moving it to another property? You're moving it to, or does that even matter?

Casey Mericle: Yeah, I'll try to do it on a property I own. Right.

Chris Powers: If you were going to buy something from me and you're like, I already got financing for it.

You don't really because you'd still have to come up with the money to give it to me. You know what I mean?

Casey Mericle: You have to have the money somewhere.

Chris Powers: So where does that come from? Well, if you're moving it around. You're just moving into stuff you own.

Casey Mericle: I'll sell something else. I might sell something else, but let's say I've got an 8 per cent note on something else, right?

And I can get 4 per cent on the note we're discussing. So I say to myself, okay, I will sell something and pay off the 8 per cent note, and I'll move the 4 per cent note to that. De-financing is what you call it. So it's not refinancing, it's de-financing. It's getting and moving mortgages to make your debt cheaper.

Okay. That's one that you won't hear anywhere else, probably. So think of all the things, Chris, right now.

Chris Powers: So if we go back to that situation, though, where the bank has the million dollar note, you're trading something with the bank.

Casey Mericle: Yeah. So, if I'm trading something with the bank.

Chris Powers: You would give them that 3 million note you're paying on and collateralizing.

Casey Mericle: I could.

Chris Powers: And they would give you what?

Casey Mericle: Well, hopefully change. If their note was a million and mine was three, they would give me two and change. And then I take that too, buy something else, and move the note on your property to that.

Chris Powers: But I thought the note that was on your property was already at the bank had it.

Casey Mericle: We need clarification now; I'm not sure; we went way down the rabbit hole. I need to figure out where to go because I missed a step.

Chris Powers: I missed a step; I think you're, you're doing it right; I got the bad note from the bank.

Casey Mericle: you got the bad note from the bank, okay?

Chris Powers: Okay. You created a note on a friend's piece of property. Yep. And then the bank bought that from you for 3 million. Yeah.

Casey Mericle: Well, 2 million, and they gave me the old, correct?

Chris Powers: Right. But then you said, "Okay, then I would move the note and do the next thing. Which note are you moving to? Oh, bad million dollar

Casey Mericle: No, the created note. I might move that. On a bad note, I will value-add or sell that. And recoup my money or do a little better or worse. It depends, but I'm telling myself, okay, if I've got a walkable mortgage for 4%, what other mortgages do I have for more than 4%?

Chris Powers: I got it. When they bought that note from you, you're still paying the bank. So you're just saying, I'm, yeah, I get it.

Casey Mericle: I'm saying, what else? How can I improve my position? Right. And if I've got, you know, five, six, up to 8 per cent on something else, can I sell something and move that mortgage I just created over to?

De-finance the property. So instead of 8%, I'm paying for it, so it's just another move. I'm sorry. I went way down there.

Chris Powers: No, you did.

Okay. It's good. So then, what happened to the friend all along the way?

Casey Mericle: Yeah. So, the friend I paid for a while. Right. And then I just moved it off of there, and I stopped paying him, and he's still got his same land free and clear. He doesn't have an income anymore.

Chris Powers: And that 2 million that you get is borrowed. It's your part. You owe that back.

Casey Mericle: I'm borrowing it at cheap rates.

Chris Powers: Yeah. Okay. I brought it home. I landed.

Casey Mericle: Yeah, you got it, man.

Chris Powers: But that's creative. Now, what has to happen in that situation is you have to have a friend willing to do that.

Casey Mericle: Yep.

Chris Powers: You must have a bank willing to buy that note.

Casey Mericle: Yep.

Chris Powers: And they're willing to do that because they got a problem child that you'll take off their hands. Yeah.

Casey Mericle: I'm going to solve the problem.

Chris Powers: They're getting a bigger note, but the miracle secures it.

Casey Mericle: Something better or with a heavy signer. So they like it. Okay. You got it. That was not easy, man. You went down the rabbit hole.

Chris Powers: It takes me a bit, but you landed that plane there. I got it. All right. Anything else? Is any other cool?

Casey Mericle: Can we talk about 1031 exchanges for a minute?

Chris Powers: Talk about whatever you want.

Casey Mericle: Okay. So, I have this discussion with a strip mall guy, and he refuses to 1031. And I don't blame him. I understand why he refuses to because he is in the institutional world, and it doesn't make sense in the institutional world, but something like 60 per cent of 1031s fail.

And I wouldn't say I like that for brokers, and I want that for sellers. We've talked a lot about buying, but I'd like to help the sellers and the brokers. So, 60 per cent fail, people are paying a lot of taxes, and I want people to refrain from paying taxes. And so occasionally, people call me and say, Hey, can you help me place a 1031?

And I help them if I can. A couple of things: you can solve your problem with planning and lowered expectations, right? So, what do I mean by planning? So, if you think you're going to 1031, you should start today by trying to find a replacement property. And if you've got a buyer that comes in, you should lease option that property to said buyer to give you time to find something.

You can do that, and you can do a reverse exchange. So if you find something you love, buy it. And then reverse exchange into it. So that's the planning part. The lowered expectations part is people call me, and they're like, I've got 15 days left. I need a hundred multifamily units. It's got to have, it's got to be a ten cap.

It's got to be core. Let me make that up right off the top of the bat. It doesn't happen. So, lowered expectations, what we often try to do is, Hey, we're going to find you another property where the value is there, right? If you've got a 10 million, 1031, we're going to find you something that's 10 million or more that you can safely get off the clock, so you're not going to like it.

You will save the 3 million profit the government still needs to take. So chill temporarily. So we put somebody in something temporarily and try to meet their yield needs. We tell them to pound sand on the asset class because it doesn't matter. I understand if your institution can't do this, but if you're not.

Just get off the clock for a year, maybe more; we'll buy it back. But we'll buy it back from you once you find a replacement property, so you get off the clock and don't have to sweat and worry about finding that great deal, right? You see something else that is juicy, right?

And you wait like you got to wait a little bit, but then you don't pay the tax if you lower your expectations.

Chris Powers: Okay. The thing that's most impressive about all this, and maybe it's just cause I haven't done it. You can create trust with people you don't know to do things you don't like.

I've been in this industry for 18 years. I need help understanding most of this stuff. You're talking about Mom and Pa, who have owned something for a while. They need to find out what a cap rate may be. And so, I don't know the question, but how do you trust that quickly? How do you get people to do these things that seem like things I'd have to convince my family over three Thanksgivings to do?

Casey Mericle: Sure. Well, for the 1031 example, would you like it if I saved you all those taxes? And it's 3 million in taxes, right? It's not what you want, but it will get you off the clock, and you can go to something else. So, for all of the other stuff we discussed, it's greedy.

Hey, can I pay you more money? And I've hardly ever had somebody argue with me about paying more. Like it just doesn't happen. Usually, they're okay with that.

Chris Powers: That's how I used to feel when cold-calling building owners. It's like, I never understood why they would get pissed. I'm like, I'm just calling, asking if I can give you money.

I'm not trying to sell you life insurance. I'm not trying to sell you anything. I'm giving you a bag of money for what you own.

Casey Mericle: How would you like to be pissed the whip with a brick of a hundred dollar bills?

Chris Powers: Okay. The one Twitter question that I thought was interesting cause we've covered the rest was. We've covered this, but if there's more to add to this, can he explain, in simple terms, the concept of creating debt and then making money off the debt rather than the deal?

Casey Mericle: Making money off the debt rather than the deal?

Yeah. Let's talk about wrapping a mortgage. Wrapping a mortgage is essentially putting two mortgages into one. So, think of it as a burlap bag full of sand. Or a sack of sugar, a little sack of sugar, right? That's the first mortgage, right? And then, we take a burlap bag full of sand and wrap it around the bag of sugar.

That's the second mortgage, right? So, if you create financing, right? And let's use the same example we've been operating at a 4 per cent rate. And then you can wrap that mortgage to someone else. And this is easy to do right now, like on houses, right? So, a bunch of people have 4 per cent mortgages.

Let's take it; you could take the title subject to that mortgage. You wrap that second mortgage, the burlap bag of sand, by another 2%, right? And you go and sell it to somebody else. If you mark it up 2%, they're at 6%. Six per cent is less than the 8 per cent they can get on debt right now. So their payments are way lower than they would be normally.

Somebody is going to love that deal. You've created financing to give you a spread from where rates were a year or two ago to a little less than where rates are now. So that's an example.

Chris Powers: Okay. If anybody listening to this wants to contact you or might have an opportunity. How would they reach you?

Casey Mericle: Yeah, just on Twitter. Casey Mericle. C-A-S-E-Y-M-E-R-I-C-L-E. Reach out to me, and let me know if I can help you. I can't solve everybody's problems, but You give me a shot. I have one or two things for you that might work.

Chris Powers: Thank you for today. It was awesome.

Casey Mericle: Yeah, man. Hey, can I say one more thing?

Chris Powers: Yeah. So we can keep going.

Casey Mericle: You don't know this, but, like, I've been listening to you for a long time, right? I'm amazed and happy that you have brought me a ton of knowledge I wouldn't otherwise have, and you don't know how much I like knowledge.

So, how many episodes are you into this?

Chris Powers: This will be like 320.

Casey Mericle: 320 So you need to learn more. But I wanted to say thanks, man. Like what you do is awesome. I'm fired up about it. If you can pull one idea away, it can be. It can be life-changing.

Chris Powers: Yeah, I can. Well, it means a lot. It's why I do this. I get to meet amazing people along the way. Selfishly, it's like I tell people I'm an audience of one sometimes, like if I'm learning and into it, I'm winning, and if other people find it interesting and, you know, I think even with you, you've got now, I don't know, thousands, tens of thousands of people following you. And there's a responsibility to that to some degree.

Casey Mericle: Yeah, I think they made a mistake, but yeah, there's a responsibility.

Chris Powers: For sure, and I feel a heavy responsibility in a really good way. And so it means a lot you tell me that. Thanks for doing this to me today.

Casey Mericle: All right, man. Great. I appreciate you inviting me, really do.

Chris Powers: All right. Call the doctor.

Casey Mericle: Yeah, call the doctor.